Reading Time: 9 minutes
CEO Schoolab San Francisco
Mathieu Aguesse is a 2015 graduate of ICAM School of engineering and Audencia’s specialised master in Marketing, Design and Creation (MS MDC). From his offices in San Francisco, he runs the US version of Schoolab, an innovation studio that trains, advises and supports its clients in responsible innovation. Mathieu also teaches design fiction and ethical and collaborative innovation at UC Berkeley. ‘Deplastify the Planet’ is one of his flagship programmes.
Mathieu’s story is that of a boy with a passport full of stamps, who, from South Africa to Nigeria, has developed a taste for travel, discovery and relationships, which he carries with him everywhere he goes.
Our conversation takes place across an ocean and several time zones and we pick up the thread of our discussion that started two months earlier.
Mathieu has just returned to San Francisco after a stay in Vietnam to support the development of the local Schoolab subsidiary. As always, he has taken advantage of these few days to learn, enrich his already wide experience of the world and store up different ideas and viewpoints that will help him move his own projects forwards.
When asked if he is in San Francisco for the duration, he smiles as if the binary format of the question still puzzles him. For Mathieu, “Staying in the USA or returning to France” is an incongruous choice as the world is full of so many other possibilities too. Mathieu is giving himself time to choose but also time to welcome his third child in the coming days.
When asked if he is in San Francisco for the duration, he smiles as if the binary format of the question still puzzles him. For Mathieu, “Staying in the USA or returning to France” is an incongruous choice as the world is full of so many other possibilities too. Mathieu is giving himself time to choose but also time to welcome his third child in the coming days.
Mathieu sees life as a permanent and collaborative learning process in which everything always ends up making sense and aligning when you know how to listen and observe. Discreet and curious, Mathieu doesn't like to talk much about himself: he prefers to talk about his encounters, discoveries and projects. In short, anything that will enhance his perception of the world he lives in with eyes and ears wide open.
Tell us where your wanderlust comes from
I grew up in Africa, between South Africa where I arrived two weeks after my birth and Nigeria. My parents were diplomats, attached to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They moved around a lot and I guess they passed on to me their thirst for curiosity, discovery and meeting people.
My family returned to France when I was 12 and then, when I was 16, my parents headed abroad again without me. In most families, it’s the children who leave the nest, in mine it’s the other way round. That changes your perspective on life.
So an international career was always on the cards…
Subconsciously, yes.
Between my return from Nigeria and my studies at ICAM and Audencia, I spent ten years in Nantes. Even though I loved my time there, I felt a bit stifled. Deep down, I knew I needed to go further afield.
I have visited about sixty countries in my life, so living outside France was never a case of if but when. I had been ready for a long time when the opportunity arose; I would even say that I’d been waiting for it to happen. Sometimes life creates beautiful coincidences: when I left for San Francisco, my first child was the same age I was when my parents took me to South Africa.
In fact, I would have liked to start Schoolab in South Africa to bring an innovation model to which I’d had access to a country that, in my opinion, represents the future of the world. However, for a company like Schoolab, it made sense to start our international development in Silicon Valley, the most dynamic and powerful entrepreneurial ecosystem in the world. It was a big gamble for us to see if we could exist in San Francisco with our values and differentiation, the ethical side of innovation.
So even though it wasn’t Africa, I seized the opportunity without question and with enthusiasm.
At the beginning, however, your path didn’t look like that of an entrepreneur in Silicon Valley.
I had already sown seeds and they were just waiting to germinate and grow. At ICAM, I had taken part in an entrepreneurship competition around the digitalisation of AMAPs , a very rich experience even if it didn’t go all the way.
However, thanks to the alumni network, after graduating I made a “safe” choice by joining the construction sector, perhaps because I had not yet become aware of my true needs and values: discovery and ethics. Very quickly, however, this conflict of values blew up in my face: I was uncomfortable with the male-dominated environment where the balance of power was profoundly unequal to the detriment of the artisans, the “small guys”. This did not suit me at all and I wanted out.
I wanted to do something radically different and headed to the luxury sector, where, on the contrary, artisanship is a highly valued cornerstone of the industry. However, it’s a difficult environment to get into and no-one wanted to hire me. The result was that, with a partner, I created a start-up for bespoke leather goods.
We had a promising concept, good suppliers and funds raised from the BPI. Unfortunately, like so many start-ups, the ride was not a smooth one. Our project was used as a case study in the HEC Entrepreneurs course and integrating the conclusions proved hugely complicated. Instead of being strengthened, our confidence, in ourselves, our project and each other, was put to the test. What bound us together at the beginning then seemed to divide us, so we decided to stop.
Was abandoning your start-up the hardest choice you ever made?
There’s no doubt that the decision was a tough one at the time, but I also knew that we couldn’t continue as we were and that our chances of success would be compromised if we couldn’t align our visions. Strictly speaking, it wasn’t so much a choice as a necessary step that had to be accepted and digested.
The decision I had to make directly afterwards proved to be more difficult.
What was that?
After ending my start-up adventure, I received a very nice job offer from a fabulous brand of leather goods. It was the kind of offer that I couldn’t refuse and that would allow me to achieve my dream of working in the luxury sector.
I was very excited and happy about the offer, but deep down I had a feeling that I was missing a few strings to my bow, especially in design. This was a thought that had been floating around since creating my start-up and I’d started investigating solutions, including returning to the classroom.
Then I received two acceptance letters on the same day: one from my dream employer and one from the MDC recruitment team at Audencia. I ummed and aahed but chose Audencia. This led to some interesting conversations with my parents who, although they didn’t really get the no-brainer of paying to go back to school instead of accepting a well-paid opportunity, were always supportive.
It was a choice of intuition over reason and I don’t regret it.
So that’s how you joined Audencia?
Yes, for the specialised master in Marketing, Design and Creation, but also for the programme director, Nicolas Minvielle, whom I had met and asked a billion questions about the course, the school, future prospects and more. The role and practices of designers fascinated me.
After my baccalaureate, I had considered studying at the School of Design in Nantes, so I was already gravitating towards that environment: the little seeds I was talking about earlier were planted but I didn’t want to water them too soon, probably for fear of the lack of opportunities but also perhaps because I was too young. At 18, I think I was too young to have been exposed to the realities of life and to be able to make enlightened decisions. I guess my first degree was a precautionary choice, perhaps also by default.
On the other hand, joining the MS MDC programme was a very well thought-out choice, and paying for the course myself, instead of earning a good living elsewhere, gave an extra dimension to the challenge. I knew I had to make the most of the experience.
Looking back, I think that it is very difficult today to do this type of course without a bit of experience under your belt. That’s why I always involve companies in my teaching at Berkeley, so that the students are immediately faced with the realities of systems and organisations. I also believe that my mission as a professor is to accompany students on this path of continuous learning and teaching them how to learn, i.e., giving them the tools to challenge the status quo and think for themselves.
What memories do you have of Audencia?
I’m sure my background has made my memories quite different from those of the rest of the class. Even though I wasn’t yet 30, I’d already experienced entrepreneurship, business and working in the real world.
I think the French education system should value courses like the MDC and Specialised Masters in general. These courses are goldmines that can be an enormous lever for transformation. We should be making so many more bridges between education and work, to allow more people to come back to study at 25, 35 or 45.
When I arrived at Audencia, I quickly realised that entrepreneurs and designers are made of the same stuff! They think with their guts and with their emotions. That’s how you can recognise them: there’s a rather interesting form of collective hysteria in the MDC classroom because the course is creative and gets people moving. The profiles are very (very) hybrid and able to juggle subjects and disciplines. This suited me well because I like the idea of not being confined to a specific box.
Is being unconfined your career secret?
Maybe it is! I think I’ve always regretted my default choices more than the risks I took that didn’t pay off.
Today I see things differently: I accept what life throws at me and then I observe and try to understand the systems in which we evolve and endeavour to remain proactive in order to align these systems with my desires – or the opposite.
For example, in four years in San Francisco, we never bought a car, which is very uncommon here. However, on countless occasions, our friends and acquaintances offered to lend us their cars, vans and even houses. Simply because we didn’t rush into anything, knew how to align our desires with the needs and capacities of our close ecosystem at the right time. The same thing happened to us when we were looking for a house: instead of rushing to make an appointment with a real estate agency, we talked about our search within our circle and went to meet the people we were introduced to. We listened and were open and very quickly found a great place.
It’s the same professionally: you have to be patient and know how to seize opportunities when they arise. To do this, you need two essential qualities: knowing how to conceptualise and express what you do or want, so that you can easily talk about it around you, and knowing how to give back whenever you can, in one form or another.
Is sharing the key to today’s world?
Perhaps more globally, awareness but also permanent transformation. I give this impetus to Schoolab, activating transitions with a rationale of continuous, controlled and flexible, proactive and positive movement.
The people I joined Schoolab with have all left. I stayed. Why did I stay? Because I managed to develop my job and my professional practices, and therefore my impact on the world around me. I regenerated the meaning I gave to my projects throughout my time in the company.
This is what I try to teach my students and the companies I work with. I share my own experiences to help them adopt a positive and sustainable approach to transition. Individuals who start to change will continue changing and, through a form of osmosis, this will continue to have an impact on their activities.
Change is an attitude that feeds on learning, observation and freedom of choice. In order to take power and act on what we want to transform, we must understand the world, not just submit to it. You have to develop critical thinking, which means challenging different points of view. I try to put this into practice in my courses, by inviting pro-plastic lobbyists to my ‘Deplastify the Planet’ programme, for example. We all need to find some depth of thought and reinvest in freedom of choice.
How do you see the future?
That’s a difficult question!
Today, everything is going well professionally. I have just received an award for best teacher at Berkeley. Schoolab is growing, even though we are focusing on slow, organic and qualitative growth rather than scale. By the end of the year there should be ten of us, compared to only two during the COVID-19 period and our programmes are very successful. I have just published an article on Design Fiction in the prestigious Harvard Business Review. However, the future is not just about that. I have two children, and soon three. In ten or even twenty years from now, I want to be able to look them in the eye with pride. Not for my professional success, but for having understood the issues of our time and being part of the solution.
Having children puts things in an interesting time scale and gives depth to my daily action. For me, defining a company’s vision means making sure that the activities to which I devote most of my time contribute to creating a positive impact on the world we will inhabit tomorrow.
I often say, “You can’t go wrong with sustainability.” In fact, you can go wrong, but in the method not the commitment. I am very interested in regenerative agriculture: we are involved in maintaining the community garden and beehive, which I find fascinating. When you look closely at bees, you understand both the way honey is made and the concept of social inequality. You think about healthy eating and climate justice.
When I look back, I have no regrets: I made mistakes, I made choices by default, but I learned. I understood that freedom of choice was the condition for the future, the key to true success, the one that lets you think you are in the right place, at the right time, with the right people and the right impact.
Reading Time: 11 minutes
Writer, author, documentary filmmaker & reporter
After graduating from SciencesCom in 1998, Stéphane Dugast quickly embarked on the adventure of the open sea by becoming a reporter for Cols Bleus, the magazine of the French Navy. Although he is a reporter, director, author and lecturer, we could also describe him as a storytelling explorer.
Stéphane travels the world bringing home tales of adventure where, in the background, we catch a glimpse the exploits of explorers from Pytheas to Paul-Émile Victor, via Magellan and Jules Verne, who hardly ever left France but whose accounts of Extraordinary Voyages gave rise to so many callings, including Stéphane’s…
In a nod to Arthur Rimbaud, one of the many heroes of his youth, we could describe Stéphane Dugast as a ``man with soles of wind``. When we ask him to go back to the sources of this appetite for the unknown, exoticism and the ends of the world, he takes us back to Nantes, between the river Loire and the Sillon de Bretagne, where the young Stéphane first felt the call of distant horizons.
Can you tell us about where you grew up?
I spent my childhood in Saint-Étienne-de-Montluc, on the north bank of the Loire estuary, about twenty kilometres west of Nantes. My grandfather had a mill with an adjoining chapel, on the hills of the Sillon de Bretagne. I grew up in the countryside, in the marshes that lead down to the river Loire. With my brother and cousins, we went frog gigging and raced around on our bikes. It was a wonderful playground and we built huts, rafts and boats from bits and bobs. The boats sunk more often than not. In short, in reference to Jean Becker’s film, it was a childhood in the marshes. I was very interested in imaginary worlds, the cinema of Eddy Mitchell and the Dernière Séance, with his war films and westerns, and all those films that told of elsewhere.
The landscapes of my childhood were rural and earthy, with the promise of the unseen ocean nearby. If I had to remember only one image from that childhood, it would be of the big oak tree where we built our wooden hut adjoining the vineyards and my grandfather Jean Redor’s ancient stone mill. Our imagination always ran wild. As Chouans or confederates, we defended ourselves from attacks by republicans or Indians. We were dreamers and pioneers but I always wanted to go and see what was behind the horizon.
All children have dreams about their adult lives; what were yours?
I never talked about my childhood dreams because I was scared of being told that reality was just around the corner. My first dreams of open spaces came to me while I was growing up between the river Loire and the Sillon. The promise of elsewhere was calling. As a teenager, I felt good about myself but began to long to go overseas, to the desert, the tropics, the ice floes and all those other places that you dream about when you’re sitting at home. Each time I saw a boat, I wanted to go aboard and cross the ocean to the end of the world. I watched the Indiana Jones films so many times I’ve lost count and of course I dreamed of becoming an archaeologist.
I had the complete collection of Jules Verne’s Extraordinary Voyages, so of course I dreamt of coconut palms, desert islands and all the things that make up the explorer’s “playground”. And what had to happen happened: I ended up dreaming of becoming an explorer.
What kind of a child were you?
I was sociable but a bit of a loner. I was never afraid of being on my own but also able to fit in with a group. After all, I was a reporter on board navy ships for sixteen years, so you had to have some social skills to fit into that environment.
I was curious and attracted to everything; after meeting a baker, I wanted to be a baker, after meeting a writer, I wanted to be a writer… However, I soon realised that storytelling was my thing. I started a newspaper at school, where I wrote my first column about the film Crocodile Dundee. I got a taste for writing. I mistook myself for Arthur Rimbaud and wrote poems to my girlfriends until getting 4/20 in French for my baccalaureate brought me back down to earth a bit…
That didn’t stop you from writing books later on! We’ll come back to that. In the meantime, what did you study?
I took my baccalaureate in 1992, at a time when everything was possible in Europe. The USSR had disbanded and I was learning Russian and dreaming of working in Eastern Europe. I ended up studying economics in Nantes, just across the road from Audencia! In my heart, I still wanted to travel but my dreams of exploration and writing were fading. I put my energy into sport and competed in triathlons.
After my bachelor in economics, I headed to Lille to do my master and spent an Erasmus year in Ireland. I became a columnist at the France Bleu Nord radio station and that was the trigger! Telling stories to others was what I wanted to do. Back in Nantes, my mother told me about a postgraduate course at SciencesCom. I saw that an alum, Alexandre Boyon, had become a sports journalist at France Television so I called him and he advised me to join, telling me it would open the doors to becoming a journalist. I think that’s what motivated me….
My years at SciencesCom were both instructive and festive. I had a great time but the last six months were tough as I spent a lot of time at my mother’s bedside in hospital. She died at the end of the year. After SciencesCom, I wanted to ‘eat’ the world but I had to do my military service first. Luckily, I got into ‘Sirpa’, the army’s information and public relations service.
And your military service gave you the opportunity…
At the end of my television internship at Paris Première, I moved to the editorial staff of Cols Bleus, the magazine of the French Navy. I ended my military service as an able seaman and tried to get a permanent job at Cols Bleus. My editor gave me 48 hours to prove to him that I was the right person for him to hire. I came back with an interview of Robert Hossein who was putting on his show “Celui qui a dit non” about General de Gaulle, hardly suspecting that the majority of the navy had not been very pro de Gaulle! By chance, my superior officer was a Gaullist; he hired me and that lasted 16 years.
For a long time, I was the only reporter at Cols Bleus. I was finally able to travel, fulfil my dreams, make documentaries… The last years at Cols Bleus were nevertheless difficult. I was put in a siding and didn’t travel anymore. This gave me the time to write a biography of Paul-Émile Victor, take a course in geopolitics at IRIS (Institut de Relations Internationales et Stratégiques) and a course in creative writing before finally being promoted to editor-in-chief of the newspaper!
What do you think was your first real exploration?
It was in 2001. My coverage of the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier had gone badly; I was on the verge of quitting the Navy when I was given the chance to join a ship on its way to Clipperton, an isolated French atoll in the North East Pacific. I managed to get aboard ship as it passed through the Panama Canal. When we approached Clipperton, I found myself facing the mysterious island I had dreamed of and fantasised about in my reading. Nevertheless, frustrations bubbled to the surface as the boat only stayed there for three days, enough time for the army to restore the marks of French sovereignty and to make an inventory of the crabs, birds and coconut trees. I counted them myself; there were exactly 387 at the time!
Three days is not very long, I wanted to stay there for two months! However, this first report enabled me to scout for my second trip to Clipperton, which led to my first documentary for Thalassa, a legendary TV programme that I filmed in 2003 with the renowned polar explorer Jean-Louis Etienne as my main character. In 2015, I returned to Clipperton, with an international expedition and was how the atoll had changed. Rats had replaced the crabs and the beaches looked very different due to erosion and rising sea levels…. Proof that Clipperton is a French sentinel in the middle of the ocean.
To come back to solitude, is it an inevitable part of being an explorer?
Yes, partly. I dream of being Robinson Crusoe alone on a deserted island like Clipperton. Solitude means you have to face yourself, with your qualities and faults. When I cycled through France for my project La France Réenchantée, I had long moments of solitude, but if you’re not afraid to embrace it, solitude can make you feel alive and put you in touch with the precious things in life. Similarly, I have sometimes found myself alone in corners of the Arctic. The relationship with nature is very powerful, both majestic and terrifying. From a very reassuring blue sky, all of a sudden, the wind starts to blow, you are cold, you can’t take shelter, the ice is thin and threatens to give way under your weight… You find yourself face to face with yourself, which makes you both fragile and strong. The link between life and death becomes tangible, immediate, reminding us of that very fine line that we so easily forget in today’s consumer society.
People say you are an explorer; do you accept the description?
I don’t know if I can call myself an explorer. My daughter Joséphine always tells me that she doesn’t know what to put in the boxes when asked about my profession. Author, writer, director, explorer? In my opinion, many explorers are real scientists, archaeologists, oceanographers… Others are more sporting or heroic, like Mike Horn. As far as I am concerned, I explore to share stories and transmission is important to me; my parents were teachers… I like to turn on the light and say that everything is possible. So I am also a transmitter, a storyteller, who makes films, documentaries, books… I also work for the press, Historia, Terre Sauvage, Figaro magazine, Géo and Détours en France.
When I was asked to join the Society of Explorers, of which I have been Secretary General since 2015, I hesitated for a long time. For me, explorers are Paul-Émile Victor, Théodore Monod… I accepted because the question remains open. We have real debates about the differences between an explorer, an adventurer and a traveller… I am a traveller when I go to Venice with my wife for the weekend. An adventurer takes risks and expects the unexpected. Explorers are not necessarily carrying out something useful, instead making a beautiful promise made to society. Uselessness takes on its full meaning when it is shared, hence my need to tell and transmit.
Who has inspired your calling for exploring?
There are so many! Paul-Émile Victor of course, especially as I’m his biographer. Then there’s Jean-Baptiste Charcot, scientist, medical doctor and polar scientist, himself a mentor to Paul-Émile Victor. The fascinating Philippe de Dieuleveult, who inspired a whole generation with his TV programme La Chasse au Trésor (The Treasure Hunt) in the 1980s, who disappeared in the Zambezi Falls and whom we later learnt was an agent of the DGSE (French intelligence service)… The writer and novelist Joseph Kessel, of course, whose books I devoured. There are also the fictional figures, like Indiana Jones, who shaped my desire and need for adventure.
You pay particular attention to the world and the people who inhabit it. Are you empathetic?
When I first started out, I travelled a lot to soak up exotic and unexpected experiences, but I soon needed something else. I wanted to understand the planet and the people who live on it; perhaps this is empathy. In any case, I try to give some of my time and energy to humanitarian causes. I’ve been quite involved in the NGO Aviation Sans Frontières and have written a book for them. I have been on the ground with them and have accompanied sick children to Burundi…
I also try to get involved in these causes through the Explorers’ Society. We will soon be hosting a director who has followed a migrant artist on his journey across the Mediterranean. There will be volunteers from SOS Méditerranée who will tell their stories of the people who are ready to take any risk to cross the sea. It is another form of exploration, so much more risky than the one I, as a westerner, accomplish.
The shelves in your office are groaning with books. Can you share some of the titles with us?
Just behind me is a shelf of graphic novels; I’m crazy about comics, especially adventure comics. If I had to choose just one, it would be R97, les hommes à terre by Bernard Giraudeau and my friend Christian Cailleaux. It tells the story of the sailors on board the Jeanne d’Arc, the French Navy’s ship. I also have many reference books on exploration. I would mention Michel le Bris, the creator of the Étonnants Voyageurs festival, and his Dictionnaire amoureux des explorateurs, and then of course L’Usage du monde by the Swiss travel writer Nicolas Bouvier. At the top, there is the complete collection of Joseph Kessel’s works, alongside works by Alexandra David-Neel, Robert Capa and many others. There is a pile of novels waiting to be read, and, dare I say, a shelf with the fifteen or so books I have written myself.
Can you tell us about your next adventures?
I’m a bit superstitious about this; I don’t like to talk about projects that I haven’t signed up for yet. However, I am definitely going to be travelling through the canals of Patagonia and along the Antarctic Peninsula as a guest speaker of a tour operator. I would also like to start writing screenplays, fiction for comics and, ultimately, for film. The Société des Gens de Lettres has just accepted me on a course I have been yearning to do for a long time. I have written about fifteen books, atlases, illustrated books, surveys, a biography…. and I have the impression that in terms of publishing I have more or less done the rounds. I think it’s time to move on to stories that are a little more universal, and even some fiction.
What advice would you give to Audencia students who want to follow in your footsteps?
First of all, I would advise them not to set limits for themselves. I would tell them that everything is possible, that utopia is a nice word. To quote Theodor Monod “Utopia is not the unattainable but the unrealised”. I think I’ve taken the utopian route. I believe that if you have a dream you can go for it as long as you try to align what you have in your head – this intellect with which you make your dreams – with two things: your own eyes, which are not yet very sharp when you leave your studies, and your heart and guts.
However, you should never lose sight of the fact that being an explorer looks great on paper but is very vague in terms of a career and not very lucrative! Personally, I accept this freedom, which means that some months you struggle to make ends meet while others are more comfortable. It’s part of the deal and you have to know that before you start. At the beginning of my career, Jean-Louis Etienne said to me: “You’ll see, if you want to do this job, the main thing is to last the journey”. In other words, you can make a few hits, do some great exploring followed by a beautiful book; it’s hard not to get carried away, but it can all stop as quickly as it started.
What did you do last weekend? And what will you be doing next weekend?
On Saturday I worked, because you can’t always count the hours needed to get a job done. In the evening, I watched Black Hearts, with my family, a series about the Special Forces in Iraq. On Sunday, I went for a three-hour ride on a gravel bike in the Bois de Boulogne – I need nature and chlorophyll. My wife and I are also planning to go to the cinema and see an exhibition. If you’re going to live in Paris, you might as well let yourself enjoy life in the capital, which has so many treasures.
Is it difficult to reconcile your passion for exploring with family life?
My daughter Josephine is 14 and I was 35 when she was born. I’ve always tried to give her quality time over quantity time and favour projects that might take me a month to complete, but that will result in a book or a film. Moreover, as an explorer, you are often behind a computer building projects and coordinating them. Even if I do travel a lot to festivals in France, I am still at home a lot. In the end, I’m away two or three months a year, and not all at once, so yes, I manage to reconcile my explorer’s life with my family life.
Reading Time: 11 minutes
Founder & CEO Webhelp
“I was certainly lucky to grow up in a healthy business environment and to have received an education that favoured due diligence. It is obvious to me that a company must be profitable to survive and grow. You need a simple business model where you understand what you are selling, know what it costs and can anticipate what you will make.
In the early 2000s, however, these principles were not in vogue. The era of the new economy favoured originality over profitability and we were talking about disruption, first mover advantage, winner takes all”, writes Olivier Duha in his book “Think Human – La révolution de l’expérience client à l’heure du digital” published by Eyrolles.
Twenty years later, the CEO and founder of Webhelp (120,000 employees in more than sixty countries) can look back on his company’s flawless track record, which quickly combined disruption and profitability to become one of the world's leading providers of customer experience and relationship services and solutions. “If there’s a message that I would like to pass on to future entrepreneurs, it would be to say that there are endless opportunities out there,” Olivier says, choosing to sum up his thoughts with the adage: The sky is the limit.
Where do you come from, both literally and figuratively?
I was born in Dax, in the Landes area of southwestern France, a fairly poor, agricultural region where people like to live, party and play rugby. My childhood was good. My father was a self-taught retailer and I probably inherited the entrepreneurial values he shared with us at home. I was a very active child, turning my hand to many things and playing lots of sport.
I only became interested in studying when I got to secondary school and realised that learning and knowledge could be useful. Economics was my favourite subject. I think the first books my mother bought me were about economics; I remember reading Robert H. Waterman’s bestseller, The Price of Excellence, as soon as it came out. My good results in economics and maths naturally led me to business schools.
So you joined Audencia?
Not immediately. After glandular fever kept me in bed for a good part of my preparatory years in Pau, I got into Sup de Co Poitiers (now Excelia, editor’s note). In 1992, I went on to Audencia to follow a Master’s degree in Management Consulting Engineering. I have always been interested in the analytical and strategic dimensions of the business world and the Audencia degree, very much focused on the engineering consulting profession, suited me perfectly. It was an exciting year, which led to an internship at L.E.K Consulting.
On the subject of internships, I remember one of my classmates wasn’t sure which direction his career should be taking so hadn’t secured an internship. I had a second internship offer in HR consulting from Hay Management, which I turned down but managed to convince them to take my friend instead! At the time, he didn’t find the opportunity particularly motivating but 30 years later, after an entire career in HR, he is a successful HR Director.
How did your first professional experience leave its mark on you?
I joined L.E.K Consulting at the same time as two other trainees from HEC and Centrale. The head of L.E.K. got me worried by telling me that there would be only one job up for grabs at the end of our internships, and that my Audencia degree would probably not be a match for the ones from HEC and Centrale! In short, I was challenged from the start, and I realised that adversity suited me, that it made me want to surpass myself. In the end, I was the one who got hired!
And this story repeated itself quite quickly. L.E.K is an English firm and after a six-month stay in the London office, I returned to the Paris office and applied for a position in Sydney. Again, I was told that I was not at the top of the list and again, I got Sydney! It was the second small victory in my young career. I stayed in Australia for one year and it was an important chapter in a career that I wanted to be as international as possible.
What do you think your bosses saw in you that made the difference?
I think I had a higher capacity for work than my colleagues did and I certainly remember working a lot. I also think I am extremely reliable, serious and methodical. Then again, I am just repeating what I was told at the time! I am a hard worker and I have a real work ethic. I’m not necessarily the smartest, but I think I was appreciated for this combination of discipline, conscientiousness and enjoyment of work. You can only work hard if you enjoy it! I was perhaps a little more passionate than the others were. It was all these things that made me more quickly spotted by managers, consultants and partners.
Why did you decide to return to the classroom to pursue an MBA?
I loved working in consulting. The positioning of L.E.K Consulting was very analytical. It was a lot of thinking about beautiful strategy cases. Intellectually, I found it fascinating but I had been there for five years and had reached a stage where, in order to move my career forwards, it was essential to do an MBA. In 1997, I applied to and was accepted at INSEAD. To be honest, at the outset, I wasn’t particularly enthusiastic about becoming a student again, it was just a means to an end. However, once I was there, I had an amazing year and I often tell my children how great it was to be able to return to school at the age of 30. First, because you have a much higher level of maturity. Secondly, because you can relate and refer to your business experience. Nothing is conceptual anymore, nothing is theoretical and everything connects much more easily with reality. There were 47 nationalities in my class making for an intense and intellectually rich experience.
What did you do after your MBA?
I went back to consulting because I felt good there. I loved L.E.K. and fully intended to return to them but I had the opportunity to join Bain & Company, a larger American firm. Returning to professional life came with a heavy workload. It was the end of the 1990s when the Internet was taking off and you could feel that a new world order was about to emerge. Even though I loved what I was doing at Bain & Company, I felt the urge to become an entrepreneur. I just had to find the right idea. During that time, I recruited Frédéric Jousset to strengthen the team for the last case I managed. However, he wasn’t really suited to consultancy. Instead, he had a very entrepreneurial profile, so I suggested that we set up a company together, which would become Webhelp. We remained partners for many years but he has since taken a different path and I am now on my own at the helm.
Can you take us through the inception of Webhelp?
The company started on a whim. Afterwards, there are things that seem obvious, but at the time, it was more a question of intuition. It’s not entirely rational, you just feel that a combination of factors is there and you have to seize it. There is also a bit of luck, but as Pasteur said, “Chance favours only the prepared mind”, and I think I was prepared.
We realised that the Internet was turning into a huge library, so it needed a librarian. At a time when Google didn’t yet exist, the idea was to build a human-assisted search engine. We wanted to disrupt the world of the call centre by imagining a much more digitalised customer relationship, through interfaces such as emails, chats, videos, etc.
This idea was very successful and we quickly attracted big investors like Bernard Arnaud, via Europ@web, our first reference shareholder. We created a buzz and the product quickly gained notoriety but, it wasn’t profitable! At the time, monetisation through advertising and data worked well in theory but was very different in reality. Each time someone asked a question on the platform, we lost money, which meant I knew how many days were left before I had to rewrite my CV!
We remedied this by moving from B2C to B2B. We quickly won our first clients who were Internet service providers and the first e-commerce sites. We recruited ex-consultants from consulting firms to strengthen our upstream consulting, we came up with a very techy, innovative offer and we decided to relocate resources to reduce costs. All these decisions explain the early success of Webhelp, which then established itself in France as the new player in customer relations outsourcing.
If you had to share one piece of advice that you learned from your entrepreneurial adventure, what would it be?
I think we all too often underestimate a company’s potential for development. If I had a message to pass on to future entrepreneurs, it would be to look out for a world of opportunities and possibilities. The expression “the sky’s the limit” is true and even when you reach your goal, there’s always more territory to explore.
When we launched Webhelp, we set ourselves the goal of becoming the leader in France. This seemed like a far away objective for such a small company, but we succeeded. France represents 4.5% of the world’s GDP, which means that 95% of the wealth is elsewhere, so our next objective was to become number one in Europe. From where we stood, it seemed almost impossible to achieve but we did. So now, when I tell my teams that today’s objective is to be world number one, they think I’m crazy but I always tell them: “If you don’t laugh when I tell you about my objectives, then they are not ambitious enough!”
At the end of the day, the mountain always seems smaller once you’re at the top. This is something I have learned over the past 20 years. As an entrepreneur, it has been a real discovery to realise how much you should not be afraid of thinking big.
However, I have to admit that we have never had any serious failures. Of course there have been ups and downs and difficulties, but no major events that could have endangered the future of Webhelp. This is perhaps partly because we have a very sophisticated risk management system. Inevitably we take risks, because in order to move forward you have to be daring, but the thoroughness of our analysis means that we have never put the company at risk, even in the context of the 27 acquisitions we have made.
Do you attach particular importance to your professional environment?
I have one very strong belief that I repeat to my teams: start with the who not with the what. The women and men who work with us are more important than anything else is. For me, human capital is the combination of an individual’s intrinsic abilities – i.e., their skills on a subject – and their ethos. The right skills won’t work if the right mind set isn’t there.
I spend a lot of time recruiting the right people. I put ethos and mind set at the top of my recruitment criteria. Ethos in a company is like education in a family. You can train people in skills they don’t have, but you can’t change their ethos. Of course, there is no right or wrong ethos, but it doesn’t work to have too many different ones in a company. Diversity is important but it has its limits. A certain cultural homogeneity is necessary to avoid the risk of inertia. So we make sure we have as much diversity as possible in our ranks, while ensuring a certain cultural coherence that tallies with our company. The American professor and consultant Peter Drucker used to say “Culture eats strategy for breakfast”, and it is so true!
Are you prone to stress?
Yes, I am, but I think there are two forms of stress, one that paralyses and one that energises. The latter generates dopamine, and as far as I’m concerned, it increases my energy tenfold. When someone tells me: “With Audencia, compared to HEC and Centrale, you won’t necessarily get a job after your internship”, it stresses me out but motivates me at the same time! I perform better in difficult situations.
In previous interviews, you mention sporting activities. How do you fit sport into your busy routine?
I still manage to do a lot of sport. Rugby and tennis was for when I was younger; now it’s mostly skiing (hors-piste or sometimes extreme) and mountain activities in general (hiking, mountaineering, in winter and in summer)… I also manage to fit in a round of golf when I’m travelling to the four corners of the globe.
Think human, think peace appears on your computer wallpaper. Why did you write this?
Think Human is the Webhelp baseline that goes with our logo because in our industry, human resources are the most valuable asset. In the world of customer relations, the heart of the reactor is the human being.
We assist major brands with their customer interaction issues. We are a consulting firm, an IT firm and a contact centre operator all in one. Therefore, we either position ourselves as a technology company or as a human resources company. I believe that the essential resource is people, not technology. All companies in the sector can acquire the same technology. However, when you manage to retain human resources through the way you treat your employees, you have a competitive advantage that is difficult to copy. Webhelp is recognised for this very people-first approach. In R&D, my investment priorities are training, onboarding, people engagement initiatives, etc.
I also believe that Think Human should be at the heart of brand thinking, for two reasons. On the one hand, the digital effect means the balance of power between brands and consumers has changed in favour of the latter. Secondly, we have moved to an experience economy where we no longer judge just the cost-benefit of a product but also everything that happens before and after the purchase, i.e., the entire customer journey.
I added Think Peace on 24 February 2022, the date Russia invaded the Ukraine…
You took your base line, Think Human, to name your foundation…
We did indeed create the Think Human Foundation with the aim of generating giveback on the subjects of inclusion and education, interesting subjects related to the fact that we are in a very people-intensive business. Initially, it was a fund supported by the company’s founders and shareholders. Now, the idea is to get all employees to participate, even if they only give a few euros. A few euros multiplied by 120,000 people makes for a sizeable annual budget.
What are you most proud of in your career?
Whenever I visit Webhelp sites around the world, I always take the time to have round table discussions with the employees who work in the contact centres. I want to know their take on the company’s culture by asking them the question: “How do you talk about Webhelp to your friends and family? I am very proud of the consistency of their answers, which underline that we make a difference through our social management policy. I am very touched by this. The consistency of our HR policy throughout the company is probably the thing I am most proud of.
Can you take us through a typical day for you?
There are two. The first is when I get to work from home. I can get a lot done by video. In this case, I like to get up early; I start by reading the papers, working and doing 45 minutes of sport. By 9.30am, I’m ready for my first meetings. I work almost seven days a week. I lighten up a bit at the weekend but I still work a bit because I like it.
The second sort of day is when I am travelling. We are present in about sixty countries, with 230 production centres and contact centres. I have to go and see my customers, accompany my teams so I spend more than 200 days a year travelling.
Do you nurture an entrepreneurial spirit in your five children?
It’s important to be influential without being manipulative or coercive. I don’t want to interfere; they have to find their own way and there are no wrong routes to go down. Just because I’m an entrepreneur doesn’t mean they have to do the same! The value of example, which is valid whatever the profession, is the desire to do well, discipline, seriousness, effort. Personally, I try to do everything to the full, and not just on the job.
Your LinkedIn profile mentions that you are a graduate of the Wine and Spirit Education Trust. I guess this means you have a favourite wine!
That’s correct! I am passionate about discovering vineyards all over the world. My favourite wine is Emidio Pépé from the Abruzzo region in Italy… to accompany an autumn meal (with game and mushrooms…).
What are your plans for the weekend?
Some friends are coming to stay with us in Brussels. We’re going to take a little trip to Bruges and Antwerp. A bit of sightseeing, a bit of sport, and a bit of work of course! (laughs)
Where do you see Webhelp five years from now?
Initially we developed the service side where our teams accompany brands throughout the world. We then added an IT department to offer technological solutions in the world of customer experience and then a design solution consulting business for companies that are transforming. I think that the consulting business in particular will become increasingly important. Proportionately, of course, we are getting closer to the world of Accenture on the customer experience side.
Reading Time: 12 minutes
CEO of De Beers Jewellers and De Beers Forevermark
How did the daughter of a construction contractor with no connections, who grew up in a rural area of south-western France surrounded by cows, ever become the first female CEO of one of the most prestigious jewellery brands in the world? This is the remarkable trajectory of Céline Assimon. In 2001, she started in marketing with Piaget in NYC, then in 2011 for Louis Vuitton in NYC followed by Paris in 2015 as the worldwide head of high jewellery & high watchmaking sales, before re-joining Piaget in Geneva as its international high jewellery director. In 2018, at 41, she landed her first CEO position with Swiss de Grisogono. Today she holds no less than two CEO roles, as the head of De Beers Jewellers and De Beers Forevermark. She takes pride in the mining giant for its engagement in tracing every diamond it discovers and sells, and for raising high business, environmental and social standards for its own operations and the industry as a whole. Céline’s mission is to engage her consumers in both the beauty of the crafted diamonds as well as the beauty of their story, so that these precious symbols of connection and celebration can be worn with pride.
When we explain to Céline that this portrait series aims to reveal the human nature behind Audencia’s iconic alumni, she is immediately up for it. She tells of her regret that she didn’t identify inspiring leaders she could relate to when she was studying at Audencia 20 years ago. At the time, “They all seemed to have this cookie-cutter life, the suit and the wife at home. I wish I’d had access to CEOs who shared their personal stories, successes, mistakes and the fact that you can thrive if you learn from them.”
When looking back at her career to date, Céline makes a point of emphasising the hurdles she had to overcome. She is convinced that she wouldn’t have reached her current position if there hadn’t been a few difficulties and failures along the way. She highlights three in particular: her father’s struggles with running his business, her own countless rejections in the search for her first internship, and the experience of taking de Grisogono through bankruptcy.
Céline has long established her reputation in this coveted industry, but she doesn’t take success for granted. “I am trying to look to the future with a cool head and a dose of humility. Careers nowadays are very fluid, and I might not have my CEO title in a few years from now.” It is with the same refreshing candour that this self-described chameleon, petrol head and bon vivant reveals her immersion into the African American culture, her best red-carpet moments and her signature dish.
You and I are from the same year group and oddly, the first thing I could recollect is that you come from Corrèze. What else can you tell us about your upbringing?
Well remembered! Yes, I did grow up in that rural and remote region of France. This is evidence that distinctive assets are not just useful for brands, but they serve people too!
I am an only child but in a sense, I had a sister in the form of my dad’s business. He owned a construction company, and he was really hands on, working seven days a week. My mum did the accounts for my dad and also worked full time in a small accountancy firm. I followed every step of the journey of our family business. From a young age, I had a good idea of what it takes to run a business and realised early on that hard work doesn’t always pay off. The older I get, the more I look to the past and appreciate that when it comes to my work ethic, the biggest source of inspiration was very close to home.
Have you always wanted to work in the luxury sector?
I was an avid and competitive horse rider and for a long time I wanted to make a career of it. But when I accepted that most professional riders are born into riding families which wasn’t my case, I switched gears. In the small town where I went to school, there weren’t any careers counsellors or anyone to encourage me to sketch out bold dreams for my future. So my journey didn’t start with a vision, but instead with the realisation that I should choose a path that would offer me the widest range of possibilities, even if it meant a scientific baccalaureate with a lot of maths. I always dreaded maths…, which I find quite ironic now that I run big P&Ls …
My first job aged 15 helped me to start working out what would fulfil me in life. I was working in a summer camp, teaching riding to under-privileged 6 to 8 year olds, some from foster care, who lived in rundown housing around Paris (although this wasn’t true for all of them). My family was not wealthy, but they offered me a happy and safe childhood. There was a real “epiphany” moment when I realised that I needed to incorporate an element of gratitude into whatever I was going to pursue, no matter the difficulties and frustrations I would encounter. With my first pay cheque, I bought a ring and that was another revelation. I understood then and there that I was fascinated by craftsmanship; not just for fine jewellery but for any object that has been lovingly and expertly designed. I’ve always been curious about how things are made, by whom and for what occasion. I like the storytelling aspect and decided to find a role that would fulfil me creatively but also provide me the financial means to continue riding. Funnily enough, now that I have the means, I don’t have the time to ride!
While I was figuring it all out, there was one message that my friends – from primary school right up to Audencia – kept telling me: “Don’t worry about the future. You are independent, driven, outspoken, and resilient. You will always fall on your feet, and you know where you want to go.”
You studied a masters’ at Audencia from 1997 to 2001. What are your best memories from that time?
To be honest, I remember less about the curriculum at Audencia than the social life! I was part of the team that organised the triathlon. It was my first experience of project management and I remember the frantic chase to get sponsors. Solène and Hélène, amongst many in the team, were great leaders and partners and team effort was key: if you didn’t pull together, you failed. What an emotional rush it was when a whole year’s work, sweat (and tears) culminated in one huge weekend event!
The semester abroad at the University of Cincinnati (UC) was another highlight. Audencia nominated me for a special international marketing programme. There was only one place and I jumped at the opportunity. What I didn’t know was that it would send me to a different area of the campus, completely separate from fellow Audencians but also from all the other international students. Settling in was tough. With 60,000 students, the campus itself was bigger than my hometown! I was one of the few Caucasians in my dorm and it was a challenge to decipher the working-class African American & Latino culture around me. Although I was out of my comfort zone, I gradually made friends who introduced me to their fraternities. I discovered the realities of students who were juggling multiple jobs in grocery stores, being raised by single mums who in turn were juggling multiple jobs to send their kids to university, in a city where drugs and crime were rife. That was another moment of realisation and gratitude.
You don’t come from a family with connections to the luxury sector. How did you land your first internship?
I was well aware of my disadvantage, so I doubled down on resilience. I recently stumbled on a notepad on which I had listed all the brands I wanted to work for. I had written almost 100 applications and despite being like a dog with a bone, I was turned down by every single company. I was very disappointed, but I switched to my plan B. As a girl raised in the countryside, I enjoyed motorcycling; in fact, I am still a petrol head and fast cars are one of my favourite topics of conversation! This field proved easier for me to crack, but a few weeks before I was due to start an internship with Renault, I received a phone call from Cartier to invite me to an interview. It was for a role in the in-store visual merchandising team and I was so puzzled that I asked the interviewer why they thought I might be the right candidate. She told me that the person they had secured had bailed out on them – a Parisian with connections so the interviewer decided to give the underdog a chance. As it turned out, she was from the Dordogne, noticed my home postcode and was curious! In a nutshell, that’s how I got started. I got my final internship with Piaget in NYC by harassing the VP of marketing with daily phone calls. You can’t guarantee the outcome, but typically a lot of hard work and focus should allow you to get that hoped for result.
How do you explain your skyrocketing career?
In 2001, after finishing my internship in New York, I returned to Nantes to graduate. Everyone was planning their summer vacation and pushing back their job hunt to September. For me, the insecurity of not knowing when my first pay cheque would come in made me anxious: I could not relax on a beach while being uncertain about my professional future! So I was focused on getting into the saddle as quickly as possible. My one-year internship shaped my ambition and I was determined to pursue a career in the luxury industry. In a lucky break, the head of marketing I reported to at Piaget got promoted and I was offered her role. Initially they thought the job was too big for me but I impressed them during the interview and I started on September 3rd in NYC. I think my progression has something to do with my willingness to seize opportunities as they came along.
After 5 years at Piaget, there was nowhere higher for me to go as I was reporting to the CEO and at 27, I was obviously too young & still inexperienced to take his job. So I started looking around for positions in Europe but with an American corporate mindset. Over there, recruiters expect you to do vertical or lateral moves every three years or so. In France on the other hand, I was told repeatedly to stay put and favour stability, something I refused to do. I had my sights set on LVMH and, even if it took me a few years, I got there in the end. What I have always avoided is complacency. The moment I am in a role where I just need to steer the ship, I get less excited. I am a builder; I like to create from scratch, develop my toolbox, and define my management style along the way. At least that’s how it works for me at the moment; maybe in 5 years’s time I will have less energy for that.
Sometimes, however, the opportunities I seized led to difficult situations. For example, I had to take a company through bankruptcy after the loss of shareholder support. Some people would have just left and let the liquidators handle it, but I decided to be there and support the team as much as I could. Emotionally, it was very hard but the way I manage my teams, P&L and cash flow today is definitely coloured by this experience. I never want to go through that again.
When I look back, the risks I took in different companies, sizes and cultures have paid off. I know I have big areas for improvement, but I also know that I am a bit of a chameleon, and that adaptability is an asset of mine.
Do you feel that being a woman has ever brought extra challenges?
20 years ago, when I started in the industry, it felt like I had stepped into a gentleman’s club. The environment was very masculine, paternalistic even, with clients being invited to sign deals over a cigar or on the golf course. Early on, I had to learn to stand up for myself and push back when I was put into situations that didn’t align with my values. Fortunately, the world has moved on and it was worth hanging in there because at one point or another, organisations bid farewell to those toxic personalities.
I have been lucky to report to many powerful women – in particular at Cartier and Vuitton, who displayed exemplary managerial behaviour with kindness and fairness. Many of the men in leadership positions in the luxury industry had limited field experience. To stand out from the crowd, I was keen to demonstrate my ability to roll up my sleeves and pull together with the teams who were dealing with clients on a day-to-day basis. It gave me credibility, which made me a better manager: my teams know they can come to me and I’ll have their back. What I was lacked in connections and in masculinity, I made up for with business acumen and kinship with the people who deliver the business.
Tell us more about your current double CEO role
De Beers is a widely known brand because one third of the natural diamonds that are recovered globally come from a De Beers mine in South Africa, Namibia, Botswana or Canada. In September 2020, the group CEO invited me to join a junior division – the brand and consumer market unit, and take over the De Beers Jewellers brand. Then, in September 2021, I was also tasked with leading the De Beers Forevermark brand, so we can approach the market with a differentiated offer. Forevermark caters to a more premium clientele and every one of its diamond comes with the promise that it is beautiful, rare and responsibly sourced. Less than 1% of the world’s natural diamonds are eligible for selection as a De Beers Jewellers and De Beers Forevermark.
You mentioned traceability. The mining industry has a legacy of social and environmental controversies until more recent transformations. How is CSR part of your role?
In 2006, after the Blood Diamond movie was released, De Beers implemented brand new processes to secure its supply chain and was instrumental in setting up a standard for the industry to ensure that the diamonds sold are conflict free. When I joined De Beers, the processes were being strengthened further, and we realised that we could only thrive by transforming into a purpose-led company. De Beers is strongly invested in leading ethical practices, protecting the natural world, and partnering local communities. For example, we have recently celebrated 11 years during which, thanks to the healthcare provided, no employees’ babies were born with HIV. This was very uplifting for me even if consumers were not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. For my first year I had two key objectives: the first was to put creativity back into the brand, pushing the limits in terms of aesthetic and research. The second was to translate the values that we live by and the positive impact we are making into a clear narrative for consumers.
In the countries where we operate, there are no alternative resources to natural diamonds; the gems allow boys -and girls- to go to school, get healthcare and get a leg up in life. I know it might be laughable to think that luxury and social purpose can go together but it comforts me to know that in a way, I’m not just helping one more woman to look pretty, but I am also contributing to doing some good in the world.
Now for an essential question: we assume that your role also involves engaging with your brands’ celebrity ambassadors and glamming them up for their red-carpet appearances. Are there any big names you’d like to drop for us?
Ah ha! Well, I have met many stunning and smart celebrities along the way. From my recent encounters, I would say that Cindy Bruna is wise beyond her years and as sharp and kind as she is beautiful. I have met Alec Baldwin – recently in the news for the tragic reasons I won’t mention. I hosted him and his wife Hilaria at a New York event a couple of years ago; it was quite refreshing and fun to discuss politics and current affairs with him.
Is there a particular city that your business travels have led you to and that you’d like to single out?
China is a priority for our network development over the coming year. Our latest store opened in Chengdu at the IFS Mall. Chengdu is one of my favourite cities in China: it’s very sophisticated yet anchored in unique surroundings (and home of the panda!). In normal times, I’d typically go there a couple of times a year.
What do you do in your spare time? Do you manage to leave your work behind?
I have a daughter who is 10 and her father and I are divorced. He is a diplomat currently based in Qatar and before that he was in Afghanistan, so my daughter is with me full time. I want to be there for her, so it often means that I forego my own needs and I just grab little moments for myself whenever I can. I know it’s going to sound shallow, but I love having my hair done! It’s my treat. Joking apart, I don’t hike, paraglide or climb mountains, that’s not me. But I am a pretty good cook and my kitchen is my happy place. “Confit de canard aux pommes de terre sarladaises”* was already a signature dish of mine during my years at Audencia! I love hosting meals and mixing people; this is what I miss the most from my pre-Covid world. There’s nothing like a fabulous meal with different people to reinvent the world.
Overall, I find it hard to unplug – I guess because I never saw my family doing so, but also because it’s a privilege to feel so passionately about my job. I am conscious of how my behaviour influences others, especially my daughter. I want her to have a career as fulfilling as mine, but I am also aware that we shouldn’t be so caught up in it that we forget to manage time for ourselves. Retirement might well be a disaster for me!
*a speciality from Céline’s native region in southwestern France; duck confit served with potatoes cooked in goose fat, garlic and parsley.
Reading Time: 11 minutes
Country Director for Southern Africa at The World Bank
Marie Françoise Marie-Nelly’s life is showered with a series of events that, in hindsight, could be good premonitions. At her boarding school for girls, she used to stand on the balcony admiring the sunset over the bay of Fort de France in her native Martinique. She longed to know where the cruise ships were heading and dreamt of faraway destinations. Later, she crossed the Atlantic Ocean for her post-high school preparatory classes at Lycée Clémenceau in Nantes, France. On her first day, she noticed a memorial plaque inscribed with the following words by the French statesman, Georges Clémenceau, “Without waiting for the future and the fortune of your efforts, roll up your sleeves resolutely, and create your destiny.” This message inspired her entire career. In 1986, when she was studying for her master’s degree at Bowling Green State University – Ohio, USA, she visited Washington DC and, by chance, walked past the headquarters of the World Bank. In a moment of deep awareness, she knew intuitively that one day she would work for this institution.
Throughout her life, Marie Françoise has been mindful to perceive, respond and give expression to the signals and opportunities in life, with these signals indeed guiding her deepest motivations and objectives. Her perceptiveness, combined with a sharp mind and tremendous dedication, are probably what helped her achieve her successes and reach the position she is holding today. She has lived by the motto that nothing is impossible when you put your mind and tons of hard work into it.
Today, at the head of a large team, Marie-Françoise leads the World Bank’s strategic and operational interventions in Southern Africa, including South Africa, Botswana, Namibia, Lesotho and Eswatini, identifying innovative development solutions and mobilising funding for their implementation. Her accomplishments are impressive, including restructuring and privatising public enterprises in Western Africa, liberalising air transport and telecom sectors across the continent, designing the World Bank’s approach to regional integration for sub-Saharan Africa, identifying complex infrastructure projects, leading the Chad-Cameroon oil pipeline project, and structuring the World Bank’s interventions to support the economic transition across the Maghreb countries.
Her commitment to development throughout her career has commanded the respect of government representatives, citizens, colleagues, and friends wherever she has worked. Whether through her official positions by fostering economic progress in developing nations, or in her private life, she has always been motivated by a desire to give back and build a better future. Where does she get this unwavering drive and optimism? This optimism is anchored in strong family values given by her parents. Marie Françoise also deeply believes that world progress will be achieved by giving young people a fair opportunity to unleash their potential. Let’s meet a woman with exemplary human qualities, who is equally at ease in advising some of the world’s most powerful leaders as chatting with youngsters from the townships.
Tell us about your childhood in Martinique
I had a very happy childhood in a large close-knit family with six brothers and four sisters. My mother devoted her life to her 11 children and I never heard her complain once. My father played a key role in the agriculture sector. As an executive for the Chamber of Agriculture, he led the implementation of agrarian reforms that allowed farmers to access to farmland ownership, diversify their crops and improve their farming practices. Thanks to this programme, most Martinicans now possess productive assets which were inexistent when Martinique was still a French colony.
I remember having a great sense of freedom during my childhood. Our lives were marked by the calendar of cultural events and religious festivities throughout the year. Our parents instilled in us a sense of determination, hard work, compassion, and search for excellence in everything we endeavoured. The Catholic faith, generosity and solidarity were some of the foundations of our upbringing. Interestingly, as the eighth child growing up between two boys, I developed a healthy sense of competition very early on.
Are you a born leader?
From a young age, I strove for high standards and leadership roles came naturally. I was regularly chosen as the class leader, and I thrived in the Girls Scouts. While I did not have a specific dream job in mind, I knew that I wanted to play an important leadership role. I also knew that I did not want to assume leadership for personal advancement, but rather as a unique opportunity to contribute significantly to society.
Looking through the Audencia 1978 yearbook, there was a balanced gender mix, but black students were an exception at the time. Did you suffer any prejudice?
Being uprooted at the age of 17 to join a preparatory class in mainland France was understandably unsettling, but fortunately some of my older siblings were already studying medicine and computer science in Nantes. Having them nearby was reassuring and I have fond memories of us getting together every Sunday at my sister’s house. Later at Audencia, there were only two non-white students in class – me and a male student from Madagascar. Being a high performer probably helped me to fit in more easily – during the first year I was top of the class. I never felt discriminated against. On the contrary, I was made to feel most welcome and received regular invitations to spend weekends at my classmates’ families which also helped me discover Brittany and Pays de la Loire regions.
Tell us about your career before joining the World Bank
In 1977, for my final year, my dad secured an internship for me at the Club Med resort in Martinique. Instead, I chose a different opportunity in Gabon and am eternally grateful for this choice because the experience shaped my career and nurtured my keen interest in working in development, particularly in Africa. Three years later, at the age of 23, I had my first international contract, in the Ivory Coast as a management consultant for the French Management Consulting Group CEGOS. This was during the rise of the Ivorian miracle. President Houphouët Boigny had planned the construction of 12 sugar complexes at a time when sugar prices had skyrocketed. Eventually, only six complexes were built by international firms under turnkey contracts, but the President decided to transfer the management to nationals, and I found myself being the only woman in a team of five experts to put the company’s management systems in place. This first significant position in a prominent West African country served as my gateway to the continent.
I then returned to France to complete my Certified Public Accountant diploma and secured a job at “La Villette”, one of the “Grands Travaux” of the newly elected President François Mitterrand. My task was to estimate the future operating costs of what became later the City of Science and Industry, the National Science and Industry Museum. I was surrounded by eminent French scientists who were not focused on cost but on innovative ideas! I met influential people, some of whom were in the presidential circle, and this sparked the beginning of my understanding of decision-making processes. In 1984, I obtained a scholarship from the Rotary Foundation, which financed my MBA studies at Bowling Green University while being a goodwill ambassador representing the West Indies.
Following my graduate studies, I was offered the opportunity to help establish a management institute in Burundi, as the country’s educated élite had been decimated by genocide in the early 1970s. I was thrown in at the deep end when the project director backed out just before my arrival and I was asked to lead the project. During the day, I was setting up the institute from scratch and in the evenings I was teaching management and accounting to adult students from the government and private sectors. Subsequently, as advisor to the Minister of Public Enterprises and Privatisation in Burundi and then in Togo, I worked on some sensitive cases, which really enhanced my expertise and honed my understanding of leadership challenges. By the end of this assignment, I had helped several countries tackle one of the biggest economic challenges they faced after independence, namely,promoting the creation of a domestic private sector. In 1993, I applied to the World Bank in Washington thinking I would stay there about a year to build up a strong network and, 28 years later, I am still ‘here’, having worked in different parts of the institution and countries from West to Central, North, and now South of the African continent!
You have worked as task manager, programme manager, senior programme manager and now regional director at the World Bank. What were the defining factors in the progression of your career?
I started to work as a task team leader on the privatisation of a diverse set of state-owned companies with mandates ranging from production sectors such as cement factories, agro-industries, petroleum refineries, to service sectors such as banks and telecom services. Building on my pre-Bank experience, I learned how to see the strategic, big picture, while also being able to understand the implementation challenges which can make projects unsuccessful. In fact, the ability to integrate technical aspects was one of the key learnings from my time at Audencia. Leading the very controversial Chad-Cameroon pipeline project allowed me to appreciate the importance of the political economy in whatever we do. All in all, what has helped me grow was not a career plan as such but a capacity to lead my professional journey in the way you would build a jigsaw puzzle, integrating elements, skills and experiences that initially do not appear to be connected. This is a recommendation I always offer to young people.
Some critics accuse the World Bank of being an ivory tower with staff who are out of touch with the reality on the ground, thus generating bureaucracy instead of alleviating poverty. What are your thoughts on this?
At one point, this perception was probably somewhat justified. However, from 1995 to 2005, we were lucky to have had a visionary President, James Wolfensohn. The transformative initiatives he implemented earned him the nickname of “Renaissance Banker”. He realised the importance of a diverse workforce, recruiting local talent, and decentralising decision-making power. The institution is now much more open, attentive to the needs of its clients and agile in its response.
When I joined the World Bank at the age of 35, my early experience in the field had already shaped my commitment to development. Our direct clients are the governments of the respective countries we are serving, although I am fully aware of the importance of civil society involvement as the people of a country are the ultimate beneficiaries of our work.
When I assumed my current position in South Africa, I vowed to visit a township every month and I always find this reality check particularly enlightening. Just yesterday I was chairing a meeting on the design of an education project in Eswatini (formerly called Swaziland), and I insisted that we engage with the beneficiaries, because ultimately, they are the ones who can judge the effectiveness of a programme.
Has being a woman meant you have faced any extra challenges?
When I joined the World Bank, being a woman of colour from France was not necessarily an asset. The discrimination I suffered was mainly insidious. Sometimes, it resulted in not getting the positions I aspired to, explained away by deceptive reasons. This simply motivated me to redouble my efforts and strive to remain professional and dignified at all times, including during difficult handovers. And, just like when I was a girl, I kept my gaze laser-focused on the horizon. This is another piece of advice that I share with young people: resilience, courage, and convictions do pay off in the long run.
However, I also acknowledge that the institution has made a lot of progress. President Wolfensohn was proactive in opening the Bank to a more diverse staff, women, people from minority groups, which unleashed a lot of new energy. And, like many organisations, it has had to face challenges around racism. In the aftermath of the George Floyd protests, a taskforce was set up to analyse how accusations of racism are and could be better dealt with internally.
What brings purpose and meaning to your everyday life?
I cannot imagine life without being involved in social responsibility initiatives. I have led social initiatives in each of my positions. In DR Congo, I funded projects to help get children off the streets and provide vocational rehabilitation for young people with disabilities. I organised similar projects in Nigeria focusing on war widows. In Morocco, I led a project supporting migrants arriving from sub-Saharan Africa. I have always been active on a personal level as well. I set up a foundation to help AIDS orphans and we were active in four countries. I have been sponsoring two young Nigerian orphans. In South Africa, during the immediate Covid-19 period, I campaigned for funding to feed hundreds of vulnerable migrants whom at that stage were not supported by the government’s social safety nets.
For me, there’s nothing more rewarding than empowering people who have a strong potential but are challenged because of difficult circumstances such as conflict or lack of economic opportunities.
I have read that you are a bit of a workaholic; do you confirm this?
Yes, I believe it is true! I can still see myself at my desk, for yet another late evening at the World Bank headquarters in DC. The night guards were patrolling the huge offices and one stopped by my desk to inform me: “Mam’! Not sure you’re aware of this but you are the only employee left in the building!” It was Christmas Eve. I was leaving the following day for Martinique to be with my family, and being the conscientious woman that I am, I wanted to go through all my files and tie up any loose ends before I left. However, I was so embarrassed that I packed up and went home immediately!
This determination goes back to my childhood. I guess it is a continuous quest for excellence and to some extent I can’t help it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have any other interests! I know when I need to take a breather and process my thoughts. I love being surrounded by young people. I like sports and I am currently working on a new challenge, moving from tennis to golf, which will be gentler on my knees. In addition, I try to make the most of my international business trips to understand other cultures better.
What strategies do you think Audencia should pursue to continue to catalyse positive change?
The international outlook, which has been Audencia’s signature for decades, is a fantastic asset that should be cultivated. Secondly, I like that the school has opened over time. I am a pure product of the French public school system. My parents made it a point to find ways for me to access quality education. The school should focus further on recruiting students from more varied social backgrounds because diversity drives innovation. This is precisely the reason why I contribute to the Audencia Foundation. Thirdly, the school should continue to strive for academic excellence because this is the best arm against prejudice.
Is there anything that you are particularly looking forward to in the coming weeks?
Yes, there is! Here in South Africa, we have a long weekend coming up for the celebration of Heritage Day. I will be heading to a wellness centre I go to when I need to take some time for myself. It’s on a farm, an hour from Pretoria. I will go on hiking at sunset, again at dawn, and enjoy some hydrotherapy in between. I am going on my own and am unlikely to bump into anyone from work!
It is tempting nowadays to get bogged down with what seems like an insurmountable accumulation of crises. Do you sometimes despair about the future of humanity?
I am an unwavering optimist. Look at the journey that humanity has taken: it has always been fraught with crises, but we have always recovered. To take the Covid-19 crisis example; I am convinced that it will spark some profoundly positive changes, one of which is our ability to reclaim something valuable which is time for ourselves, and to be better prepared to face such global health crises. When you step back to analyse long-term trends, you note that civilisation has made tremendous progress. In recent history, when African countries obtained independence, only 20% of young people had access to university, but today, there are many outstanding scholars in key positions all over the world!
I have one major concern though, and that is the climate crisis. I see its devastating effects first-hand, with longer, more frequent droughts and heavier rainfall that destroy crops. This is going to be the issue of our time in the years to come: how do we rethink the balance on Earth so there is space for everyone, less inequality, for the younger generation to thrive and remain hopeful.
Finally, young people make me optimistic. I get this from my mother whose motto has always been “The only secret to remaining young is to surround yourself with young people.” I believe that the only way forward is to involve young people in decision-making processes. Therefore, in each of my roles as director, I have established a youth platform. Every time I meet young people, I am amazed by their resourcefulness for innovation, confirming my hopes for a better, albeit a different, future.
Reading Time: 9 minutes
Assistant Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security, Botswana
It took 6 months to pin her down for a promised interview, but given our subject’s status, we knew that we had to be patient and understanding. To say that Beauty Manake has a jam-packed schedule is an understatement. Not even a year and a half into her first and prominent political role, she is in charge of nothing less than Botswana’s food security and agricultural strategy, and the pandemic has forced her country into a state of public emergency. This mother of two and CEO of Kungo Farms has gone into politics with a view of fulfilling her long-held dream: transforming agricultural practices in order to ensure the self-sufficiency and sustainability of the country she loves intensely.
We are glad to have persevered because, as a result, we get a special glimpse into the fascinating life of a high-profile yet unorthodox politician. Beauty shares her memories of an upbringing, which did not preordain her to the eminent career she leads. She tells us why, swimming against the tide, she decided to move into farming and she recalls in vivid detail the day she found out about her ministerial role. In fact, once we get Beauty on the phone, she talks enthusiastically and endlessly. “Forgive me, I’m a politician, I talk too much!” she apologises, tongue in cheek. Revealing her candid nature, she confesses, “Thank you for hunting me down so relentlessly for this interview. I didn’t realise I had so much to share about my own life story. I am so glad for the opportunity you have given me to appreciate where I come from and what I have accomplished”.
You don’t come from a long line of politicians. What is your family background?
That’s right. I grew up in Selibe Phikwe, a small mining town in eastern Botswana where my father was a miner. My mother stayed at home to look after my siblings and I, and when we reached our teens, she started a small import business. She travelled to South Africa where the land is greener, to buy fruits and vegetables, returning to sell them in our community. My brother and I took turns to travel with her and help her out. My parents were miles away from the political sphere, but I got there by dint of hard work, an attitude that they instilled in me.
How did you end up in a white-collar job at a diamond company?
My aunt had a strong influence on my life choices. Her son was one of the few Batswana to graduate from Harvard. She was strict, had high expectations for my academic achievements and pushed me to become a doctor. But I have always been strong-minded and I chose my own path. When I enrolled in a business and information systems course, my decision didn’t go down well with her. She told me, with a hint of sarcasm, “Good choice! Then when you graduate you can manage your mother’s tomato business”. I found this prospect ludicrous, and I was slightly offended at the time. In a funny twist of fate, here I am today the proud owner of a 35-hectare vegetable farm, and my aunt has become one of my fiercest supporters.
After university, I landed a well-paid job as systems technologist at De Beers, the diamond company. This was where every graduate dreamt of working because of the pay and the benefits, but in time, I felt out of place. When the activity slowed down during the 2008 recession, we were instructed to simply wait for the European market to pick up again, and I found this strategy frustrating and demoralising.
What first motivated your transition into farming?
After visiting hundreds of farms in South Africa with my mother, I came to appreciate the farming life. And I did the maths: with her vegetable business, my mother was making more per week than I was! I figured that if I set up a farm, my mother would not have to travel long distances anymore, and she could buy from me instead. In addition, in Botswana we are lucky to have access to a huge amount of land – our country has an area roughly the size of France for a population of only 2.1 million. Lastly, I wanted to contribute to making my country more self-reliant.
I handed in my resignation to De Beers, explaining that I wanted to be my own boss. They tried to retain me with the prospect of a secondment to the UK. However, I had enough confidence to believe that somehow, I would find my own way to Europe.
So was the process of setting up your farm as smooth as you had anticipated?
In 2013, aged 25, I applied for funding and set up Kungo Farms. The first few years were tough. My mother disapproved of my decision to “reduce myself to becoming a farmer”. She aspired for me to enjoy a more comfortable life than hers and thought I deserved a career in the corporate world. She wanted me to rock up those stilettos!
Naively, I had thought that my exposure to farming through my mother was enough but it was definitely far more challenging than I’d expected. I particularly struggled to access the market. Then, developing my venture suffered a huge setback when I had a bad car accident on my way to the farm. It took me almost 6 months to be able to walk again. I do not know what my business would have become if it hadn’t been for my father who paid my workers out of his own wages during that time.
How did the Food & Agribusiness Management degree at Audencia change your vision of agribusiness?
There came a point when I felt I’d finally grasped the agricultural production ecosystem and the immediate needs of the market. But I wanted to become properly skilled in agricultural business and be able to forecast the trends. I am fortunate that my husband – a geotechnical engineer, is as passionate about farming as I am. He encouraged me to pursue further studies to professionalise our farming enterprise. He wanted me to become a “smart educated farmer” who can make a difference.
I chose to study at Audencia because of the well-designed curriculum and the dual programme in Brazil. My sponsorship application was approved, and this is how, in September 2014, I ended up in Nantes. The curriculum was outstanding and I was especially surprised by how much I learnt about my own continent. The experience was also testing. I quickly mastered the phrase “Je ne parle pas français” but people would carry on speaking to me in French regardless! And everything was so damn expensive, which came as a shock as in Botswana, the government has provided for us most of our lives. However, I learnt the tricks of surviving on a budget.
How did you become an expert in sustainable agribusiness?
After 6 months in Nantes and a further 6 months in Sao Paulo, I came home a different person. The programme totally opened my mind to sustainable thinking. I felt ready to apply all this knowledge and to run a business that would be critical in developing my rural environment. As a country, we have been resting on our laurels for too long, spoiled by abundant diamond reserves. We have been importing food excessively, just because we could afford it – not a sustainable strategy. Food waste is also a cultural issue: for instance, at funerals and weddings, hosts always provide excessive amounts of food, as a wealth indicator. We must also work harder at conserving water and electricity. I have made it my mission to change both the system and the mindset.
With a few agro-dealers, we had this idea of setting up an event that would have educational values beyond the traditional trade shows. I pushed the sustainability agenda, we invited all the key players to join the conversation, from the grassroots organisations all the way to the senior executives at the diamond companies, and I started leading a sort of green revolution. Soon after, Lucara, a Canadian diamond Company operating in Botswana approached me. They had heard about my work as they were looking to expand into sustainable agriculture, and they employed me as a CSR consultant.
How did you make the jump from farming to politics?
The president of Botswana is also originally a farmer. I first met him when he was vice-president and I challenged him on different policies. I remember thinking: “He is eloquent and smart, a visionary; he is taking the time to answer my questions, I can see myself working with this guy!” My vision was of a transformed rural economy where a vibrant agricultural sector would help people move back from the towns to the villages. I was applying that model as a consultant and although I was impacting only a few people’s lives, I had proven that I had nailed it. The VP paid attention, we got to know each other better, and I invited him to open some sessions at our show. In 2019, just a few days after he won the presidential elections, he asked me to submit my CV. I assumed he was looking for an advisor or a public officer, but in truth, I had no idea what I was applying for. Straight afterwards, I left for a holiday with friends in Durban, South Africa.
I will never forget the day I received that phone call! We were getting ready to go out for dinner and feeling blissfully relaxed after time in the spa. My phone rang; I glanced at the screen and yelled at my friend, “It’s His Excellency! It’s the President!” He said that he needed to meet me urgently and that he would send a car to pick me up from the airport. I just managed to squeeze in a quick shopping session, because, as a farm girl, I had no formal clothes. An hour later, wearing my brand-new suit, I was in his office at the State House and I had the shock of my life when he asked me to join his cabinet and actually be part of the decision-makers. He asked me for my thoughts and I accepted on the spot. I explained that the job was in line with what I had been advocating for years and was an opportunity for me to build a sustainable future for my kids and the generations to come. To which he replied, “Great, now let’s get to work”. In November 2019, I joined the ministry.
Has your financial and social status had an impact on your family?
20 years ago, when I was going around farms in South Africa with my mum, I spotted the wonderful Stanford Lake College with its first-world aura. I knew that my mother didn’t have the means to send me there, but I dreamt that one day my children would. Today, I am proud that the elder of my two boys – who are 14 and 9 – is a pupil there. The wealth that I have achieved through farming has also allowed me to make sure that my parents are comfortable. I have built a nice house for them in our home village. Now my mother doesn’t need to travel to South Africa. They have moved to my farm where I have delegated the day-to-day operations to a team.
When she realised how fulfilling it was for me, my mother began to support my decision to go into farming. My parents admire my move into politics. The other day, my dad was queuing at the bank and a customer told him “Have a seat sir, come on; your daughter is the minister!” He was flattered and beaming with pride, but he didn’t want to appear arrogant. Personally, I still haven’t really adjusted to my new status! I don’t call myself a minister, I just see my job as a fantastic opportunity to transform my country. I have not defined the position yet and I do not let the position define me. If, at the end of the five-year term, I am able to implement my vision and deliver results, I will be the happiest person in the world, and will start calling myself “the minister who made a difference”.
What are your plans for the weekend? Will you get a chance to relax?
Frankly, there is very little opportunity for me to switch off. My phone beeps nonstop, I need to respond to incessant demands and I run around constantly. Being in politics during these Covid times has been testing, but makes you appreciate your strength. For the past three days, parliament has been in session until midnight, so we are all exhausted. I rarely get time to myself, and when I do, I use it to do some deep work.
Regrettably, my husband, parents and children are hundreds of kilometres away from me as the pandemic has locked us in separate zones. I have not had a chance to talk to them for a whole week. Today is a public holiday; I have enjoyed a rare lie-in until 9.30am and I am going to take today off and rest. The way I prefer to refuel is by hiking in the mountains with a friend, or sitting down with a glass of wine to enjoy watching a TV series. I will let you in on my guilty pleasure: at the moment I am addicted the South African spin-off of the reality TV show called “The Real Housewives of…” It follows larger than life and assertive businesswomen… and I can (somewhat!) relate to them…
Reading Time: 10 minutes
Chair of Sichuan Huashui Excellence & Huashui (taxation firms)
Sun Ping is adamant that setting oneself a strict framework of rules is the key to a successful career and a harmonious life. She has been moulded by a rigorous military-style education (both figuratively and literally – her father was an army officer). It included a rather unique time management protocol that she has adopted ever since and implemented with her collaborators and family members. Loyalty to her parents is an important rule of hers: although she had a strong desire to become a teacher, she followed the route they had set out for her and became an accountant. She ended up embracing a successful career in taxation. Diligence is another core principle of her framework. A self-made woman, she started her professional life as a cashier, working her way up before launching her own taxation consultancy firm in 2004. She has accumulated over 30 years of experience in financial management, solving tax-related disputes, and pre-IPO financial and tax consulting.
She is now one of the most respected and recognised professionals in her field in China. She is driven by solid work and moral ethics that have, at times, led her to stand up to senior colleagues, even at the risk of losing her job. Strong minded, she wakes up at 6:50am 365 days of the year without needing an alarm clock, and goes for a 5K run “even during the Chinese New Year festival”. She is openly ambitious and aims one day to compete with the likes of KPMG and EY, but humbly accepts that she won’t succeed without a lifelong learning plan. This is what led her to join the Sino-French SWUFE-Audencia DBA programme, from which she was the only woman to graduate in 2018. Keen to convey the importance of hard work and resilience to the young generation, she volunteers as a Student Career Development Mentor at SWUFE and Chengdu universities.
But she is quick to point out that she doesn’t advocate setting up and following rules for the sake of it. Her structured organisation is what allows her to optimise her agenda and prioritise quality time with her husband and son, as well as some alone time for her to recharge. Every inch a romantic, France had been in her mind for years as she fantasised about the prospect of strolling along the Seine holding her loved-one in one hand, and a bunch of roses in the other. And she is keen to put an end to the stereotype of the dull accountant: she too can let her hair down at times … albeit decently and moderately!
Thank you very much for accepting the invitation. What should I call you?
My name is Sun Ping. My surname Sun is a reference to Sun Yat-sen, and my first name Ping means “apple” in Chinese. But my French teachers all called me Sunny so this is how you could address me.
Let’s start at the beginning Sunny, how would you describe your childhood?
I was raised in Chengdu, in the Sichuan province of China, also called “Heaven on Earth” for the beauty and abundance of the land. My father was an army officer who fought in the Korean war against the US. My mother is a medical doctor, as were her father and grandfather. Our home was a bit like an army barracks and my father raised my sister and I like his soldiers. He devised a schedule in which every single task – even the most mundane, had a time allocation that I had to respect. Each morning I awoke to the sound of his loud whistling. I then had 3 minutes to make my bed, and fold sheets, pillows and quilts the way soldiers do. I then had exactly 3 minutes to brush my teeth and wash my face, one minute to tie my shoes, and one minute to put on my red scarf.
I can understand why such a strict routine could sound a bit extreme, but I always complied obediently without any sense of restriction or resentment against my parents. I received a strict education, but I was loved. This stringent time management system had a very profound impact on me, and I naturally integrated it into my school life and the way I ran my business and my family life. I am grateful to my parents for empowering me with techniques that have actually given me the freedom to live a richer and freer life.
When you were a child, what did you want to do when you grew up?
From a young age, I wanted to become a teacher. I have so much respect for this noble profession. I see teachers as “engineers of the human mind”, who have the power to pass on knowledge and to purify the soul.
If you had such a strongly anchored dream, how did you end up following a very different path in the taxation industry?
My mother made education choices for me based on careful considerations. She envisaged a career in medicine, law or accountancy which she thought were the most respected in the West. She thought it was important to pick a profession that none of our family members had had before. And one that would suit my strong-minded and independent personality. This is how the idea for me to become an accountant emerged. It turned out to be an excellent choice for me, offering me a liberal but respectable status.
You have climbed the ladder up to a very senior position. Have you benefited from the connections of some of your friends or relatives?
Not at all. I started studying accounting in 1985, and after I graduated from university, I got an internship as a cashier. I then worked my way up to become an accountant, then to the head of the accounting section, and further on up to executive positions. The director of the first company I worked at – a new technology research institute, certainly helped me in this ascent by trusting me to make my own decisions, which boosted my confidence.
Can you share some of the boldest moves that you have made in your career?
In 2003, I felt the need to be challenged further so I joined a non-Chinese company. Foreign businesses in mainland China had higher standards and requirements for talents at that time. At one point, differences with the VP of our US-based company came to a head when I discovered that he had been involved in some malpractice. My job made me directly accountable to the Board of Directors, and my professional ethics were telling me to report him. Before I did so, I reached out to him privately to confront him. When it became clear that he would not resign, I decided to leave because there was no way that I could work with someone dishonest.
The same year, I made another bold decision by setting up Sichuan Jinlitong Financial Consulting Co Ltd, a financial consulting company. My husband is a financial expert, which helped me gain expertise in science, tech and real estate loans, as well as the bank conditions and risk preferences. At the end of the year, I had signed contracts with a large number of state-owned companies, such as the giant, Chengdu Telecom, as well as real estate development companies. Soon after, in August 2004, upon recommendation from one of my clients, I set up my own tax firm.
The way I went about setting this second company was equally bold… At that time, the Chinese government was in the process of reforming tax firms throughout the country, and they had not authorised the registration of any new tax practitioners for the past two years. I was aware of this legal challenge, but I was motivated by the pressing needs of my clients. So I decided to go straight to the secretary general of the tax administration centre. I told her that unlike many other applicants, I already had a long list of clients ready to be served, and asked her to trust me to develop my business in an exceptional manner. My appeal was successful and my papers were processed in a month: a record!
I noticed on your CV that in 2000 you did an MBA at Sichuan University, in 2010 an EMBA programme at SWUFE (Southwest University of Finance & Economics), and then in 2015 a DBA with Audencia in Chengdu. Where does this thirst for further education come from?
People often perceive me as a tough female CEO, a sort of business shark, but I think of myself as an ordinary woman on a perpetual quest for knowledge. In 2010, after I launched my own venture, I felt that it had been too long since I obtained my MBA. I had to keep my knowledge up to date in order to meet the ever-evolving needs of my clients.
What were your reasons for choosing this DBA and what are your most important take homes?
What impressed me the most was the international outlook of the programme. In the years to come, I want to make my company the most international of the domestic tax firms. I plan to take advantage of the Hainan Free Trade Port to take my firm from the Sichuan province to the international stage. My goal is to build up my scale and reputation and one day compete with the Big Four (KPMG, E&Y, PwC, & DTT). I have to confess being a liberal and romantic person at heart, so France had always been a bit of a fantasy for me, and I had been to France several times during my youth. The prospect of being taught by French professors (in tandem with Chinese professors), and to come to France (Nantes) for a 2-week learning trip definitely helped sway my decision!
I graduated four years ago, and I can tell that the programme has opened my mind to what matters most in order to succeed as an entrepreneur. I learnt that focusing on sales performance is not enough and how critical it is to integrate management into the entrepreneurial process. I have also become more caring towards my staff and adopted some small rituals like noting down their birthdays. My critical analysis and problem-solving abilities have also improved.
Are you still close to your DBA classmates?
Very much so. We were a small group and only five of us graduated in 2018. Studying so intensely together over three whole years created some strong friendships. Professionally I help them out with taxation queries and have even taken some as clients.
Do you feel that you have encountered additional challenges because of your gender?
I honestly don’t think so. I have been able to do everything that men in my field do … except maybe drinking and smoking, … this is just not part of my lifestyle (laugh)! And I am proud that a large majority of my employees are women.
Do you ever regret not having achieved your childhood dream of becoming a teacher?
I have no regrets because my aspirations have changed, and I feel fulfilled by my job. I create value for my clients through my professionalism and dedication to solving their financial problems which gives me pride and satisfaction. And actually, I can find similarities between my work and being a teacher. When I give a lecture on taxation, an interpretation of taxation policies and guidance to taxation solutions, I am sharing and passing on knowledge. Besides, I dedicate a lot of energy to projects that support the younger generation. I volunteer as a mentor in several universities and have set up a scholarship programme in partnership with both SWUFE and Hainan Normal University to open up opportunities for deserving students.
Do you have any words of advice to share with the students and alumni from Audencia and SWUFE?
I would urge them not compare themselves to others, because this is detrimental to their emotional wellbeing. Secondly, it pays to be diligent. I get the impression that the new generation of students lack grit, they give up too soon and tend to grumble, blaming any failure on their parents who are never rich or powerful enough. Thirdly, keep learning. Surround yourself with interesting people and insightful books. “The Way of Life” by Kazuo Inamori had a profound impact on me. He is a globally renowned entrepreneur who became a monk at the age of sixty-eight and advocated altruism in the business world.
What adjectives do you think your colleagues would use to describe you?
I actually surveyed them ahead of this interview! (laugh). This is mainly what they came up with: self-disciplined, smart in her thinking and in her appearance, well educated, strong on emotional intelligence.
Strict time keeping is a principle that you have maintained throughout your life. Does that make it difficult for some of your colleagues to adapt to your standards?
Initially it must have been hard for some partners and subordinates to adapt to my system, but after communication and guidance from me, they are more or less used to it and working together is a smooth and pleasant experience.
How are you bringing up your son; which principles have you kept from your parents and which new ones have you adopted?
I have definitely passed on time management and a set of ground rules to my son. I am proud that from an early age he has understood the concept of respect. I advocate setting up rules and enforcing them democratically, as a way of avoiding arguments. I often say to him that home is a place for love not arguments. This is my recipe for harmonious family relationships. Since my son was three years old, we have held weekly family discussions and this certainly helps to minimise conflicts.
However, I have also adopted modern educational principles. He has had more choices than I did, such as which language to learn, which country to study in or which industry to start his career in.
Has your son chosen a different trajectory to yours?
In fact, he has also gone into entrepreneurship. He graduated from New York University, and when a Free Trade Port was established in Hainan, he felt the urge to contribute to the island’s development and make a success of himself. He started his own business in the main city, Haikou. My son is my biggest pride. If I have achieved anything so far, it is that I have raised an emotionally intelligent son.
Do you manage to block off time in your schedule for leisure activities?
The beauty of following a strictly structured schedule is that it allows me to dedicate quality time to my loved ones. I also try not to forget my own wellbeing. My hobbies range from going to the spa, sharing an afternoon tea with my girlfriends, tailoring clothes, hiking, singing, attending book clubs, flower arranging…
The variety of interests shows another interesting side of your personality…
Many people think that all accountants are dull. It’s true that I do have a serious and disciplined side, but I have also retained a childlike sense of humour and am a fun person to be around. I enjoy joining in team building activities even though I always make sure I’m acting appropriately. And you should see me ahead of the Chinese New Year festivities… each year I get embarrassingly excited about cooking, decorating the house and arranging flowers. Just like a little girl!
Reading Time: 9 minutes
Professional rugby player
Fulgence Ouedraogo is the tireless tackler and captain of the iconic Montpellier Hérault Rugby Club, in the South West of France. Loyal to the club where he started as a pro, “Fufu” has been described as a role model and the soul of Montpellier. In 2011, he led his team to the final of the Top 14, the French professional rugby union club competition… gritting his teeth to ignore the pain of a broken hand. His international record is equally impressive. He has participated in several Six Nations tournaments (in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2013), won the Under 21 World Cup Championship, and faced the mighty All Blacks in the World Cup final in 2011.
With a height of 1m88 (6’2”) and weighing 99kg (15.5 stone), this gentle giant is highly respected for his integrity and bravery. Learning about his challenging start in life sheds some light onto his special qualities. Born in Burkina Faso, his parents sent him on his own to France when he was three, to be raised by a foster family. They hoped that this upbringing would give him access to a better education. Against all odds, Fulgence has pursued an exceptional sporting journey and he is grateful for how fulfilling his life has turned out to be. But he is still battling with unanswered questions around the merits of his parents’ decision. The athlete refers to rugby as a school of life that has helped him to take control of his destiny equipping him with crucial skills on and off the field. In 2017, in anticipation of his post-sporting career, Fulgence enrolled on an executive education programme at Audencia that he successfully combined with his intensive training regime.
Fulgence shares with us his efforts to make peace with a troublesome past, his passion for the noble sports, and a few of his favourite pleasures as a father raising young children in the countryside.
Do you remember the day that your parents sent you away?
My earliest memories start when I was 4 or 5 so I have no recollection of the separation. After my older sister died, my parents decided to send me to France; they wanted to offer me the best possible chances of a good education. In their mind, I would return to Burkina Faso after my studies. But my life has taken a different turn from the one they had predicted. My father, a primary school teacher, was in touch with a colleague in France who facilitated my transfer to a host family.
I have read that the initials of your mother, brother and sister are tattooed on your shoulder. Is this a sign of forgiveness?
To this day, I still have so many unanswered questions such as why I was the only sibling that my parents sent away. The lack of answers troubled me during my childhood and I struggled to find my place and to grow without the comfort of knowing where my family nest was. Especially now that I am a father, and even though I know that my parents had good intentions, their decision is hard to accept.
I had limited connections with my parents, my brother and my sister who all stayed in Burkina. But on reaching adulthood, I made a conscious attempt to discover my roots. Reconnecting with my family members hasn’t been easy because I don’t know them well and we have never shared any intimate moments. Nevertheless, despite all that has happened, I believe that the emotional links between a mother and son are indestructible and I am glad that we were back in touch. My mother passed away in 2015 when I was preparing for the World Cup and the last time I went to Burkina was for her funeral.
There is no doubt that had I stayed in Burkina, I would never have had the same career. But even more now that I am a father, I appreciate how growing up among your relatives gives you solid foundations. Anyway, there is no point in dwelling on life scenarios that I had no control over. However challenging my childhood was, it made me into who I am today.
Tell us about your childhood and how you got into rugby
I was raised in a village near Montpellier, steeped in the traditions of south western France. I only have the colour of my skin from Africa; I don’t speak the language and I haven’t mastered the cultural codes. Rugby wasn’t a traditional sport in my foster family; they had actually planned to sign me up for tennis lessons, but the club didn’t have enough members to open, so rugby was plan B! I started playing at the age of 6 in a small club near our village.
I am quite shy and have always been rather reserved. For me rugby was primarily a way of having fun with my friends and letting off steam. As a child I didn’t even think of becoming a professional rugby player; I wanted to be a fireman, then a lawyer! But from the age of 16-17, my performance improved rapidly. Our coach identified my potential, I moved to the Montpellier Club, and this is when I first started to dream about becoming a pro. Before I turned 19, I was selected to join the French team and soon afterwards, played my first game with the pros in the first team. In under two years, I went from playing in my little local club to representing my country in international competitions, which was quite surreal. I have remained grounded, thanks to my friends who came to cheer me on at the big games.
Years of success ensued. What are some of the most emotional moments you would like to highlight?
It is hard to pick just a few, but I would go with my first game in the first team for France because it felt such a special privilege. Then the whole of 2011 was memorable. I participated in my first Senior Rugby World cup and we played the final against the host country at the legendary Eden Park Stadium in Auckland. After the national anthems, the All Blacks performed their traditional haka and we decided to respond by staring back and advancing towards them in a V-shaped formation. We suffered a narrow defeat but this match is etched in my memory forever.
You were very young when you were entrusted with the captain’s armband. How did you manage this responsibility?
I had been captain of Montpellier’s 1st team but it was a still shock when I heard I had been named captain of France’s U21 team. Many of the players in the team were professionals with more experience than me, and some had played on the international stage. It was daunting at first, but I learnt on the job. My style consists in leading by example rather than through longwinded speeches. I insist on flawless behaviour in training as well as during matches. This is how I earnt my legitimacy.
There is a unique ethos in rugby. What makes you so attached to the game?
From the very outset, I have had the privilege of being trained by exceptional coaches who shared their passion for the sport and its values: discipline, respect, integrity, and solidarity. These values build character and transcend into everyday life. Rugby pitches are often where lifelong friendships are forged. It is well known that I am inseparable from Francois Trinh-Duc with whom I have been lucky to follow a similar progression, from our little club at the Pic Saint-Loup, all the way to the national team. But I still count many other of my childhood teammates as my closest friends. As adults, we have all turned out as well-rounded citizens.
Where does the nickname “Captain Courage” come from?
In 2011, I fractured my metacarpals in the semis of the Top 14. It hurt like hell, but there was no way that I would have missed my club’s final a week later. So I strapped my hand tight and bit the bullet! It was not my most serious injury, but it’s the one that people have most commented on, and the one that earned me that nickname.
How have you managed the most challenging phases of your sporting career?
My shoulder injury in 2013 was worrying. I underwent surgery and I contracted a nosocomial infection in hospital. I had to go back to the O.R. a month later, and returning to the pitch was really tough. Difficult relationships in the club, disappointing personal and team performances affected me mentally. As I am not the type of player who easily opens up, I could only rely on myself. The easy way out would have been to quit but I am a man of passion and challenges motivated to train even harder.
In 2017, you enrolled on an executive education programme at Audencia (DCP*), presumably to prepare your post-rugby years. Is it a programme that you would recommend to other sportspeople?
2017 was a pivotal year on many levels for me. My partner and I moved house, and our son was born in January 2018. Fatherhood changed my priorities, and I felt a stronger sense of responsibility. For the first time, I seriously started to project myself into my post-rugby life. I wanted to be equipped to anticipate my career shift. I signed up to a skills assessment programme and decided to retrain. I found the Audencia programme appealing because its solid curriculum including accounting, HR, negotiation and finance, would give me the keys to a variety of projects. In addition, the remote learning possibility was particularly suited to my heavy and unpredictable training schedule.
*DCP [Director of a Profit Centre] is 9, 12 or 15 month programme, in French, offered by Audencia Executive Education
But going back to school was testing! I was coming home drained after a day’s training. I was often alone with my baby so I had to put him to bed as early as I could to start studying. Most of the students in the programme had some knowledge of management as well as some business experience. For me, this universe was totally unfamiliar. I felt so behind and initially I had to google definitions which seemed straightforward to the others. I resorted to asking my peers for help… that was quite a first for me! Luckily, my classmates were great, understanding, and supportive.
It took a lot of resilience but I am proud to have persevered. The programme gave me the vocabulary, the contacts, the mindset and the confidence to start a business venture. I would recommend this formula to other sportsmen, but I would just warn them that the experience can feel isolating so it requires self-discipline. I only came to the Nantes campus once, for the graduation ceremony. There was a great atmosphere that day. We were all so happy to meet each other -at last- in the flesh, and some students even queued up to ask me to sign autographs!
I started the programme with a few ideas in event management, and I refined one during the year. Then Covid threw a spanner in the works. I am now working on another one that could work via video. More will be revealed later…
What does a typical working day look like for you? And a “down day”?
On a training day, I usually leave home at 7am. We start with some stretching, a warmup, and exercises to test our fitness level. We have breakfast together, and this is followed by a video session, a weight workout, the first training, then lunch, another video session, another training, and the post training video session. We finish off with stretching, physio and balneotherapy. I don’t get home until 6.30pm. So you see, the regime is more intense that many people realise! I like to spend as much of my downtime outside as possible. I was raised in the countryside, I love fishing and tending to my vegetable garden. And spending some quality time with my family, close to nature.
What brings you purpose and meaning in your everyday life?
My children are 2 and 3 and I am concerned about the environment we are going to leave them. Our planet is precious and I try to teach them what can be done at our level to protect it. I am far from a perfect environmentalist, but I focus on sharing with them life’s simplest pleasures. I show them the little gestures that create attachment to the natural world. I want them to understand the importance of respect and compassion. When my kids come back from nursery, the first thing they ask is to get the eggs from the henhouse, to pet the rabbit and to pick raspberries. Nothing makes me happier.
Where do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years?
I am actively reflecting on this. I hope to still have 1 or 2 seasons of rugby ahead of me. When this is over, I might relocate, even maybe abroad to experience another culture, but nothing is set in stone yet. As for deciding on my future professional adventure, I know it will be difficult because when you have lived off our passion all your life, it’s hard to imagine a project that will be as motivating. I doubt I will ever be able to re-live the same intense sensations that I have enjoyed on the playing field. But I will still look for a role that can provide me with emotions and pleasure.
What are the two black and white photos hanging on the wall behind you?
One is a picture of me as young boy having a whale of a time on the pitch with my friends. The other is a portrait of Mohammed Ali in the ring. He is the ultimate embodiment of discipline and mental strength, and an icon to many athletes.
Reading Time: 9 minutes
Deputy General Manager, Crédit Agricole CIB
In 2022, Didier Gaffinel celebrates 30 years of service at Crédit Agricole. After 16 years of investment banking and its notoriously strenuous regime, he later transitioned to managerial positions, inheriting the huge responsibilities that come with heading up divisions of over 800 employees. What lies behind this enduring lifespan? Didier puts it down to his drive and competitive spirit as well as his ability to sense when his physical resources run dry.
In these times of professional hyper-mobility, such a steady career can seem out of place. But there is a strong sense of corporate loyalty that emanates from Didier when he retraces his steps, one that has become scarce. He is grateful to a group that has enabled him to progress and even reinvent himself more than once. He has led emblematic deals for well-known French companies, such as re-nationalising the troubled Alstom engineering group, or privatising Gaz de France.
But his commitment to the company does not prevent him from sketching out his vision of a post-Crédit Agricole life… which might entail trading in his suit and tie for a pair of overalls and rubber boots.
Let’s meet a man who strives to be - in his own words - “a nice guy who stands by his convictions”.
What are the values that you were brought up with and still live by today?
I grew up in Paris in a relatively traditional family setting. My father was in industry; back in the 80s by the end of his career he was deputy manager of a subsidiary of what was then the huge Thomson group. His business was international, so he was often away. My parents’ vision for me was that I become an engineer and then do an MBA. In their mind, it was the best route for opening the doors to corporate success. However, I saw how some of my friends in engineering schools were struggling and it put me off. Therefore, against my parents’ advice, I opted for an HEC preparatory class and studied at the Lycée Pasteur in Neuilly sur Seine.
Respect and fairness as well as a sense of emulation are values that my family shares. They were part of my cultural upbringing, and, I believe, my genetic make-up. I think they are important personality traits to develop in order to succeed in my field. Investment banking requires you to have a fierce desire to succeed by beating the competition. However, integrity and honesty are also key in the banking system because they are essential to win your clients’ trust. We often forget that “credit” derives from the latin word “credere” which means to trust.
What is your best memory from your time at Audencia?
In 1984, when I joined Audencia, it was still known as “ESCNA”. It was the first time I’d left home, so it was a bit of a shock as wall as an empowering experience. I met some great people, some of whom I still count among my best friends. We try to meet up annually for a “class of ’87 reunion”.
Back in the 80s, the school used to send all its students to Ohio State University and it was absolutely special. The spring quarter I spent there was one of the highlights of my Audencia experience. Along with a few friends, we finished our stay with a 2-month road trip from California and Death Valley, to Disney World, New Orleans and New York. For someone who had never ventured much outside Paris, it was quite an adventure!
What steps did you take at the beginning of your career?
At Audencia, I chose the finance major because this is where I felt more at ease: figures never lie. After that, I completed my training with the DECF accounting diploma.
I moved to London where I worked as an equity analyst for HSBC. Taking my first steps in finance at the heart of “The City” was exhilarating to say the least. I only wish that I’d met more British people instead of sticking with the French community.
In Paris, influenced by my father, I joined the financial department of Elf Aquitaine, a large industrial company where I was assistant treasury manager for 2½ years. Having experienced both the banking and the corporate side, I decided that my next move would be into investment banking, which I saw as an opportunity to deal with both worlds. I joined Crédit Agricole’s first investment banking business (CA CIB). That was in 1992… so I’m looking forward to blowing out 30 candles on a big cake at the office very soon!
What sort of job satisfaction did you get working in investment banking?
I went into this field for the fun and the thrill of it. Like every newbie, I started by crunching numbers, which, to be honest, I enjoyed a lot. However, it’s when I started meeting with clients that I discovered the exciting part of the job. As I gained experience and climbed the ladder, I oversaw bigger parts of the transactions which I discussed with CFOs and CEOs. It set this virtuous circle in motion: I would bring them a specific expertise, and in return, I would learn a lot from these smart people. I started on the debt financing side, and notably LBO financing which Crédit Agricole pioneered in Europe. I moved to Mergers and Acquisitions, and, from 1998 to 2011, the equity capital market.
What I enjoyed most was that each deal started with a blank sheet of paper. The challenge is to come up with ideas of deals that would be attractive for clients and then try to get the mandate. After that comes the execution phase which is never without a multitude of hurdles. Each transaction is a journey that demands resilience and spending a lot of time with shareholders, senior management, and equity investors all over the world. Nevertheless, completion brings a sense of reward that makes it all worth it.
What is your proudest deal?
In 2005, the privatisation of Gaz de France was a high-profile transaction and we were acting as advisors to the French State. I had weekly meetings with the client’s top management at the Ministry of Finance, and I set up the steering committee to manage the process which took 6 months. However, my proudest deal is not necessarily the biggest one, but probably the IPO of Olympic Lyonnais. It was fascinating to scrutinise the underlying business model of a football club, and to work on such an iconic brand.
What was your work routine at the time?
I am not going to sugar-coat it: you don’t succeed in this field without long days and hard work. It probably wasn’t as bad as in the large US banks such as Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley but I was routinely working 12-14 hours a day. Sustaining this regime all year long and for over 15 years is taxing and tricky to combine with a rich family life. But the good vibes you get when your deal goes through have kept me going. You get high on it, just like with sport.
There were a few times when I caught myself just before my health was at risk and I had to slow down. In 2005, I took a management position and progressively delegated the heavy work of building spreadsheets and pitches to more junior colleagues.
Your position now is very different. What aspect do you find most fulfilling?
In 2011, I moved to coverage where my role was no longer to originate and execute transactions but to look after a dozen clients at a time, mainly in the luxury sector (LVMH, PPR) and retail (Casino). My responsibility was to understand their needs, their strategy, to be relevant and to develop relationships bringing the business line back at the right time. And when they granted the bank a mandate for a deal, I passed it on to another team who would execute it. It was much more about soft skills.
As for my current position, it’s purely a management one. I head up global coverage and investment banking with 800 employees across 30 countries. As I am originally a field man, recruiting and developing the teams was quite a learning curve.
With the other members of the executive committee, my aim is to design what will be the CA CIB of tomorrow. What I find exciting is to grow the business by opening new frontiers. One particularly interesting new line of business is advising and financing energy transition. CA CIB has been a pioneer in sustainable finance. We are a global leader in issuing green bonds and advising clients all over the world. We have the financial means to develop this activity and to make a significant impact and that, for me, is rewarding.
What is your strategy to unwind from the pressure of work?
Sport has been a big part of my life ever since I was young and I still exercise every weekend. It’s my favourite outlet for stress, and my way of escaping. I used to run semi-marathons and play competition tennis, but once I hit 50, I moved to gentler sports, namely cycling. I love golf… I just wish it didn’t take so long to play a single round!
Is there any aspect of your career story that you would be tempted to rewrite?
I wouldn’t change a thing and I certainly don’t regret having stayed with the same company all these years. What matters is to experiment with different roles, especially at the beginning of your career, so you can enrich your skills and reinvent yourself. I have never spent more than 6 or 7 years in the same role, and I am grateful for the opportunities that the CA group offered me.
What connection do you have with Audencia today?
I have never completely cut the cord. Every day I feel grateful for what the school has brought to me, so I naturally want to give back. I used to represent and promote the Crédit Agricole group in various student forums at Audencia, and I have taught a few classes focusing on business cases. Each time I can, I try to give young graduates a little boost.
What I appreciate about Audencians is that we share a sense of pride without any arrogance. We know that the organisation is not at the very top of the ranking board, and this gives us a sort of freedom. I remember that even back when I was a student, professors encouraged us with the “do dare!” watchword. So, my main advice to graduates is to be proud of your diploma and don’t feel intimidated by others who graduated from allegedly more prestigious institutions. If I take my case as an example, I can assure you that my education has never put me at a disadvantage, quite the opposite!
Have you started to imagine what your post-Crédit Agricole life might be like?
Yes I have. I will probably do some part-time teaching. I would also love to launch my own business around wine, one of my longstanding interests. Some of the deals I have most enjoyed overseeing at the Crédit Agricole were for wine clients, such as the IPO of Champagnes Laurent Perrier. And I have been investing in some start-ups in the wine industry. This passion runs in the family as some of my ancestors were in the wine and shipping business back in the 19th century. Based in Sète in the South of France, they were importing wood from Eastern Europe, transforming it into barrels and shipping them to America. And my family has owned vineyards for several generations. One of my ultimate dreams would be to have my own small vineyard. But rather than diving headfirst into it, I would enrol in an MBA in the wine business. Because I am well aware that it’s one thing to be a wine connoisseur and understand the business model, and it’s another to know how to grow the grapes and produce a product I can be proud of.
We should feel so privileged that if our health allows us, we can nowadays start a new life at 60-65 years old. For the next 20 years, I can see myself as a grandfather-entrepreneur!
In a sentence or two, what are your predictions for the global economy?
I have no doubt that the global economy will bounce back, but I am also acutely aware that this crisis has increased the inequalities, between rich and poor countries, ones which are fairly safe and ones without the safety net of a public health system. So we have a bumpy road ahead, but the future is bright. Call me a realistic optimist!
Tell us about one thing you are looking forward to this week?
Paradoxically, the extraordinary work conditions we have adapted to since the beginning of the pandemic have multiplied the opportunities for “travel”, albeit in a virtual form. I used to jump on a plane once or twice a month. I am now “visiting” clients every day on all continents. This morning, sitting in my campus in Montrouge near Paris I was chatting to clients in Japan and comparing our experiences of how the health crisis has been managed in our respective countries. I always look forward to these opportunities to further my understanding of other cultures. These windows of escapism are what I will remember from this period.
Reading Time: 11 minutes
CMO of Collibra (Belgium)
Tifenn Dano Kwan has led world-class marketing strategies for some of the largest SaaS organisations, and anyone reading her LinkedIn profile will recognise that she is a highly accomplished marketing executive. She worked for 3 years at IBM in Paris and Sydney, then for 14 at SAP in Sydney, Singapore and San Francisco. In January 2020, she joined Dropbox as CMO (Chief Marketing Officer), where she pulled off the challenge of fully integrating and digitising the marketing journey, at a time when users needed it most. During our conversation, she confided to us – a few hours before it was made public – that she was taking the plunge and leaving Dropbox for a CMO role at Collibra, a hypergrowth data intelligence startup.
She has received various prestigious awards: in 2019, she made it to the Top Rank list of “50 women CMOs who rock marketing”, and last year she received the “Global CMO of the Year Award” from the leading media house Accent. She has also been recognised as an “OUTstanding role model” in the LGBT+ Executives category for guiding the younger generation on the importance of being out and comfortable in the corporate world. Her LinkedIn profile also highlights the respect she commands from her peers and collaborators: “embodiment of an avant-garde leader”, “great at unifying teams”, “committed to mentoring and building people up”, “passionate and tenacious”, “results oriented”, “collaborative”, “compassionate” are some of the terms used to praise her .
What Tifenn’s profile does not reveal is the life promise at the origin of her prestigious career. From a young age, she was aware that the small conservative town in Brittany (France) where she grew up would be too small for her dreams. Her family had specific expectations for her, but Tifenn had the courage to listen to her guts and follow through on her big plans. She found her calling in marketing, travelled the world and found a way to make it in America. She settled in the Silicon Valley – a land that provides her with the stimulation she thrives on, as well as the freedom she aspired to embrace her identity fully. In this inspirational interview, Tifenn shares the principles that have helped propel her career forward, and talks integrity in tech, funky gay weddings, as well as the virtues of a morning coffee ritual.
Did you grow up with an eye on the American dream?
Yes, big time! At 16, I went to my mum and said “Mum, I will live in America and I will marry an American”. I was determined, and both dreams materialised, but this trajectory wasn’t what was expected of me. Of my five brothers and sisters, I’m the only one who lives overseas and has an international career. My parents aren’t thrilled about it, as they would like to see me more often, but they are happy for me. I grew up in a large, traditional, provincial Breton family, with strong Catholic values and big on education. They wanted me to become a doctor, like pretty much the rest of the family. That route was not for me and I studied law for a few years. Each summer I visited my mother’s family on Reunion Island and this is partly what inspired me to live overseas. One day I had one of those life-defining conversations with a close friend of mine. She asked me, “What have you done with your life apart from studying? Is law really your calling? How serious are you about travelling the world?” This reality check led me to apply and enrol at Audencia, for which I am so grateful.
I truly believe in the power of dreams. Even when you are not consciously working towards them, they permeate all aspects of your life. Allowing yourself to dream big is essential to inspire others, be a good leader, and generally achieve great things in life.
What aspirations did you have when you were studying at Audencia?
I didn’t have any specific aspirations when I joined, and I can give credit to Audencia for the clarity it helped me obtain. In my second year, I struggled to choose a major. I was interested in the data aspect of finance, I liked the integrated aspect of audit and control, and I was drawn towards marketing, a field that had bad press. I met with the school’s careers advisor and I will always remember her approach. After a long conversation, she asked, “When you talk about marketing and communication, I see this spark in your eyes. Do you want to work for that spark, or do you want to work for money?” I replied, “Thank you; I know exactly where to head next”. Marketing was not the most direct route to financial prosperity, but it led me to where I needed to be.
How did you develop such a passion for marketing?
I had an epiphany moment during my one-year internship. I was happily working 80-85 hours a week for a business intelligence company and was galvanised by the fast-paced dynamics of my team.
Marketing is complicated, and I have good and bad days, but I love it because of the unique position it puts me in, connecting with customers, creative agencies and so many business units. I am an extravert and I thrive most when I am engaging with people. I learnt the multiplier effect of working in teams. Going from one collective win to another is like a shot of dopamine; it crafts your relationships, and those relationships craft your career.
On top of this, I knew that marketing would allow me to fulfil my travel dreams. The marketing director who hired me as an intern proposed that I join her when she moved companies. I accepted but warned her very openly that I would be coming to her a year or two from then, to ask for an overseas position. 18 months later, she remembered, called people around in the company and offered me a position in Australia. Trust me, people appreciate and respect young talent with determination and honesty! The job was only a 12-month contract and a few colleagues asked, “Are you seriously contemplating leaving full time employment for a fixed contract in the middle of nowhere Down Under?” However, I sensed that it was an opportunity for me to start my international journey, and one that might not present itself any time soon, so I jumped at the chance.
What is your recipe for building a successful career and do you have a road map?
I don’t know that I had a roadmap, but I had a destination in mind. What I did sense was that a career needs rhythm and momentum. My rule of thumb has been every two years to start thinking about the next step, and shift into a different role, function, company, or geography. Each time I get better at managing relationships and at defining my own methodology and philosophy in marketing – which is integrated marketing.
I have also learnt the power of taking risks and of failing – but always with integrity and panache! Many people overthink by fear of failure. My advice is to seek the opportunity, don’t think twice and start early. You will figure out the rest as you go along, and you will be ahead of the others.
Did you aspire to become a top executive from the very beginning?
My number one goal was to have a career in the US. I’m a competitive person and was motivated to see how far I could go. Not in an attempt to beat anyone, but because I always strive to stretch myself, and in big corporations, it’s those leadership positions that allow you to reach your potential.
What I have realised is that to progress towards a senior exec position, it is essential to be seen as strategic. For years, I was doing my job very well but from the trenches. I then began to build a network of senior mentors whom I could observe. I admired the confidence with which they were leading. It’s all about making the most of new experiences and each time acquiring a little bit more ease in what you do.
In a nutshell, what does your current role entail?
I spent the past 12 months building a wonderful team of hardworking, brilliant people to bring the company offer to the market and drive growth for Dropbox. We created a methodology that brings together digital marketing, field marketing, campaigns, content media… In addition, we completely digitised our marketing strategy via a digital platform that centralises all the campaigns. That was my original goal when I joined because I knew it would bring a better ROI. When Covid hit a couple months later, it gave us a bit of an edge.
What might come as a surprise is that I am announcing my departure from Dropbox to start in a CMO role at Collibra, a data intelligence start-up. Staying in a public company would lead to a much safer and traditional career path, but I am taking this leap of faith because I have identified an opportunity to achieve something special. The company is growing 50% YOY, there is probably a mountain of work ahead, but I am hugely motivated. Moreover, Collibra is a European company so I will be able to take pride in telling the story of the “underdog”!
Today there is so much suspicion about technology and its threat to our privacy, wellbeing, and democracy. Why are you such a fierce advocate for technology and its power to be a force for positive social change?
Technological advancement always comes with uncertainty. There will always be people in the industry who want to bring clarity by imagining the worthy applications of technology, and those who choose to benefit from the lack of boundaries for their personal gain or for negative endeavours. From a user’s point of view, it’s in our nature to be wary of innovations we don’t fully understand. But are these valid reasons to hit the brakes? I don’t think so. We need to retain and even foster an experimental mindset. And bet on the power of positive breakthroughs because they can ultimately bring critical change for humankind. If we had let the “what if?” scenario stop us, we would never have gone to the Moon, and perhaps one day to Mars.
Experimentation must be led with integrity. I don’t think there’s a better time than now to lead with integrity, value that matters so much to me in business and life in general. Artificial intelligence is a particularly sensitive topic and people are scared of being replaced by machines. However, I see it as a good thing because tech executives always need to remember the risks and display a solid moral compass. Unfortunately, amid the breakthroughs, there will be bumps on the road, but I believe that we can learn and find ways around them.
What role can marketeers in tech play to drive this change?
Every single tech company must now look for ways to help customers solve their biggest problems, whether it’s accelerating the distribution of vaccines or lowering carbon emissions. Marketeers have an essential role to play; we are data scientists, but ultimately, we are storytellers. We have to choose whether to tell stories of productivity and efficiency, or whether to take the higher road and tell a bigger story of how technology can serve human beings and drive impact. At SAP, I worked on many purpose-driven campaigns such as the one explaining how studying the supply chain could help detect forced labour around the world. I am hugely excited to join Collibra where the founding concept is “data for good”. I find the United Nations’ Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) particularly motivating. They help craft those powerful stories and shift the mind-set. The more companies work at defining their big dreams, the better their teams can achieve them.
You are passionate about defending LGBTQ rights in the workplace. What do you say to people who suggest that these conversations are no longer needed in the western world, or that they belong to the private sphere?
In parts of the US and in Europe, the vast majority of people are now comfortable with the subject, so I understand why some might question the need to continue raising it. But there are parts of the world that are not, so we need to lead by example and become an inspiration for people from small towns, in the US, France or Asia, who do not have the same opportunities to be out and open. We need to remember that speaking out can really change perspectives far and wide.
However, I am not an activist, I don’t try to push my own agenda, it doesn’t work that way. I prefer to let people ask questions if they want to and to educate them step by step, on their own terms. I have lived in Singapore, which incidentally does not recognise LGBTQ rights, but I have never felt threatened or discouraged to voice what I have to say. I just had to go about it differently.
I have known my wonderful wife for 12 years. We got married 8 years ago in my hometown in Brittany that had probably never seen an LGBT couple. I have come to realise that in this rather conservative part of France, and even in my own family, not everyone is comfortable with me being out and bringing my spouse, so I have had to be mindful. We followed with a second version of our wedding here in Dolores Park. It was a very funky and San Franciscan, with a bit of a Burning Man vibe. We had a big party with pink balloons, everyone was up for it and it was so much fun! It’s all very contextual and I have learnt to bring people along with love and respect.
It’s not that often that we have the chance to get some insider feedback on the Silicon Valley from a member of the French alumni community. What is it like beyond the hype?
California is like Brittany, it’s rugged with an amazing fresh ocean breeze, there’s just a bit more sun! We live in a beautiful little town called Larkspur, across from the Golden Gate Bridge (Tifenn turns her screen to give us a view of the luxuriant redwoods and sequoia trees in her garden). My new company is dually headquartered in Belgium and New York, but my base will still be here. I am not leaving San Francisco anytime soon!
What strikes me is the amount of intelligence that there is in the bay area. People are always thinking about their next project. They are not afraid to dream, talk about money and ambition, and push the envelope. They challenge themselves and challenge you, so this fosters great conversations. In addition, there is a unique creative community here, so imagine all those left and right brains coming together at once… it’s quite something! I haven’t found this dynamic or energy anywhere else.
What is your personal recipe to get balance in your life?
It took me a long time – and several burnouts, for me to learn how to switch off. This is when having a good partner by your side is important. I have a wonderful wife who helps me set boundaries and supports me through the ups, the downs and the bumps. During the Covid lockdown, it was essential for us to keep on moving. I am a certified yoga teacher, and we have a gym installed in our garage.
Rest is also vital. Americans are notorious for their “always on” mindset, and they take pride in not taking all the holidays they are entitled to. When I start a new job, I warn my colleagues in America that I am French with family in France and Singapore. I make it clear that holidays are not just an option for me and that I do intend to take them. I find it easier to be upfront about it and to stick to my plan: you actually earn people’s respect this way.
Would you say that the girl from Brittany has achieved her dreams? Do you consider yourself successful?
I am very happy. My life choices come with sacrifices: I don’t see my family in France as much as I would like, and there have been some missed weddings and Christmases along the way. But I have the life I wanted and fulfilling your own promise matters. If success is happiness, then… I’ve got it!
And I still have dreams. Workwise, I could attempt to evolve in a different executive role, perhaps as a COO or CEO. I know that I want to continue to craft a journey of business excellence. I am also contemplating investing in other ventures and sharing my experience by sitting on a board. And I would love an opportunity to give back through teaching.
Can you share a little something that you are looking forward to in the next few days?
I appreciate good quality coffee and every morning I brew some in our Bialetti cafetière. Then I go into the garden with our three dogs – one we rescued and brought back from Singapore, and two mini-Dachshunds. When we go back inside, my coffee is ready to drink and I feed the dogs. You have no idea how this simple morning ritual brightens my day!