What gave you this international focus?

My grandmother’s husband worked for Air France so I guess she could have travelled the world for free. Yet she never left her house for fear of access issues. I grew up surrounded by disabled people who refused to imagine the possibility of joy. I know that one day I will be paralysed and, like many of the women in my family, I may spend my last years in bed staring at the ceiling. However, I have consciously decided that I will discover the world while I still can, and make the most of my valid years.

What aspirations did you have when you were studying at Audencia? Did you write off certain careers because of your disability?

When I joined Audencia, I was two years younger than my peers and I firmly believed that the world was my oyster. I already had a clear objective of working in international strategy. Audencia turned out to be the ideal school to fulfil my thirst for knowledge and international dreams.
Socially however, I tried but never really managed to acquire the social codes, so I didn’t blend in and that was hard. I didn’t need a wheelchair back then, but I discreetly leaned on tables when my legs felt weak. My hearing was getting worse and there were gaps in my notes, but I never plucked up the courage to ask teachers and students to repeat themselves. I was a mute observer, stuck in a bubble. My inability to open up about my issues exacerbated my isolation. I still vividly remember one of the most traumatic days of those years. As always, I was sitting in the first row and intensely staring at the teacher so I could lip read. He must have confused my attitude with insolence, and in front of everyone, he asked me to stop. I felt exposed and ashamed but it was very much my own fault for not speaking out.

What was the turning point when you came out of your shell?

I had signed up to meet with recruiters at one of the fairs organised by the school and, thinking how important it was to be transparent with a potential employer, for once, I found the courage to talk about my disabilities. The feedback was bitingly dismissive: “You are young, you want to work in the male-dominated sector of strategy and you are aiming for international positions; how can you achieve this when you have trouble moving about and you struggle to understand people?! Unless you change your career plan, I can promise you 25 years of unemployment.” This was a huge slap in the face but also a powerful motivation to do something about my situation. I cried my eyes out until I realised that I hadn’t come all this way for nothing. I was determined to be even more convincing and gather more skills and knowledge.
Don’t get me wrong, there are still evenings when I cry after a physically and emotionally draining day. But the idea of rising up and giving things my best shot keep me going. I can’t afford to waste time standing still.

Did the first steps of your international career stand up to your expectations?

I had a blast! When I was just 21, the British IT company I was working for sent me to the CES in Las Vegas, the Mecca for tech. I had never done any public speaking, not even at school, and here I was on stage, facing 600 attendees. When I realised that none of them knew anything about me, I felt totally at ease, liberated and exhilarated. I soon took on more responsibilities and regions to manage. My role consisted in helping large foreign corporations penetrate and grow in the French market. My added value was to accompany them with intercultural management, helping their global teams to identify subconscious bias and work in better harmony. Fighting discriminations – whether against disabled workers, women in tech, or women founders, has been a red thread throughout my career. Sadly, 30 years on, we are still working through the same issues.
I later joined a large consulting firm, but there was no participative management, and the clients ended up leaving our strategy reports to die in a drawer. I realised I needed to put people at the centre of the strategy, and I launched my own international consulting company.

How did you handle the logistics of your business trips?

As much as I wanted this lifestyle to work for me, I ended up having to accept that travelling was physically and emotionally exhausting. Taxi drivers would drop me at the airport with my wheelchair and probably expected me to carry my suitcase between my teeth. When I attended professional fairs, I wasted a stupid amount of time trying to locate doors that I could open. Often, after a 6-hour trip, I would check into a certified wheelchair-accessible hotel, only to find myself stuck in front of a lift too narrow for my wheelchair. Frustratingly, there wasn’t a one-stop shop to help me with my planning needs.

Is this what led you to launch Handiroad?

Surprisingly, despite experiencing them first-hand, I didn’t realise straight away that I was bound to work on disability issues. The lightbulb moment actually came from my 5-year-old son, as he struggled to push my wheelchair across the pavement. It was physically challenging for him, he was fed up and he snapped: “Why don’t they make a Waze app for disabled people?”
I thought the idea was smart but I was a busy single working mum and I had already launched an incubator for startups interested in export. However, when I questioned my network, the feedback I received was overwhelmingly encouraging. The concept would serve my personal needs as well as those of the 25 million people facing mobility challenges in France from the disabled to the elderly but also parents with buggies for example… The Covid-19 lockdown period opened up people’s eyes about the stress induced by the lack of mobility. It affects our access to employment, health, entertainment… I realised that the concept was strategically innovative and that it would allow me to channel my passion for equality.

Can you pitch Handiroad for us?

It’s an app that makes moving about easier and safer for people with reduced mobility. In order to develop it at scale and in a cost-efficient way, I grew a community of users and I speculated on their kindness. Users help each other out by locating and warning about physical obstacles as well as aggressive behaviour they have been victims of. The four core values are kindness, equality, the power of sharing and joy. Joy is often underappreciated, yet it can be life transformative. I witness it every day, for example when grandparents can finally meet their grandchildren regularly.
“Universal Design” – a theory that aims for tools to be built by all and for all, is essential to my proposition. My consulting firm’s tagline was “make the world accessible to all”, which referred to the opportunity to expand to international markets. It also worked for Handiroad, so I kept it.

What gives you a sense of purpose?

I don’t sell glamour. I sell disability, suffering and stress. Yet I feel that by addressing these issues I can create hope. This is why I always jump at the opportunity whenever I am asked to speak in public. No one uttered a word at the last talk I gave but the following day I received 6,000 messages from people telling me they found me both inspiring and too intimidating to approach … the latter I find quite baffling!

From an external point of view, it seems that our society has become much more tolerant, especially in the workplace. What is your perspective?

Fortunately, the word disability is no longer taboo in the corporate world, even though we are still in an educational phase. Action is required now because I can assure you that there is still a lot of discrimination – enough to fill a book, or two!
When a disabled person is lucky enough to find a job, the role is often disheartening and ill adapted. I was once offered a telemarketing job selling mobile phone contracts – with my hearing impairment!
Moreover, the violence against us in the workplace is still real. Ten days ago, I was in a meeting with someone who wasn’t aware of my situation. I occasionally stand but as the meeting dragged on, someone in the room, who knew me, handed me a chair and explained to the guy: “She is disabled and it can be tough for her”. His reaction was “When you are a woman, and disabled, you don’t take on a job with responsibilities, you stay at home!” Comments like this can make you feel worthless but what was worse was the fact that no one else in the meeting spoke out. Sometimes these remarks are meant to be compliments “You know what? You’re actually quite smart!”
Being disabled and a woman is a double penance; in order to optimise my chances of raising funds, I have been advised on countless occasions to recruit a man as a business partner, “and if possible, a valid one”!
Four out of five women with disabilities are victims of violence in their daily life – whether physical, emotional, sexual, financial or professional. This injustice is close to my heart. So you see, dealing with other people’s attitudes is even more difficult than carrying the disease itself. I am lucky that I can now rely emotionally on a supportive network, but even then, it can get to you.

What would be your key messages to the Audencia community? How can we be better allies?

First, I want to encourage students who feel different to be brave enough to open up. You will be amazed how it will lift a weight from your shoulders, and how much more qualitative your conversations will become. On a practical level, I would like to make the teaching staff aware that with the multiplication of online events, subtitles are crucial. To alumni who are in hiring positions, I would say that when you receive a job application from someone with a disability, you should also see their potential for adaptability and innovation. When a new hire asks for specific modifications to their work environment and equipment, remember that they are not being fussy but that they have genuine needs.
People in HR should consider setting up inclusion workshops. I designed one for my clients where everyone is asked to work with a handicap for a day (blindfolded, with noise cancelling headphones, in a wheelchair…). This is a surprisingly cost-efficient way of creating awareness, promoting kindness and bringing a team together.

So what made you decide to become a baker?

It was a personal and professional business strategy as well as the lack of market supply. A combination of all of these, I think.

First, I’ve always been an early riser, so you could say I’m predisposed to baking. However, it was mainly when I realised how good bread was so hard to find in New York that I thought about training and going for it.

I wanted to do the Compagnons du Devoir but I was too old. So I looked at the French Culinary Institute in New York. They have a big programme for pastry and another for cooking. They also have a less well-known bread programme, which is very hands-on and in line with my needs and expectations. Above all, it was intensive: in ten weeks, you learn all about French baking techniques, bread but also viennoiseries and everything that uses leavened dough.

That’s all I use today at L’Imprimerie. We’re very transparent with our customers: we have this very authentic side that ties in well with my French origins, the tastes that I loved when I was a kid and that I share today, so yes, we’re the French Bakery of the neighbourhood and we offer what our customers expect to find in a French bakery.

However, since we’re in New York, we’re free to introduce a few little twists because we have a wide community that goes beyond our French customers. We do chocolate with jalapenos, cinnamon rolls with croissant dough. You could say we have something of a Dolly Parton aesthetic: a bit cheap, but very, very authentic.

Is artisanship in your DNA?

Being a baker is probably more important to me than being French, even if I am what I am. I can handle that and I play on my origins, that’s for sure. Nevertheless, what interests me is to be true and honest and make my business work.

We have a quality approach: each morning, everything is freshly prepared by us and cooked on the spot. I don’t see the point of making a strawberry tart out of season just to make our offer more French. This is not our promise.

I offer a different vision of food in my neighbourhood, this idea of slow food and high quality. But also a presence and a place to live in the heart of the community. I’m neither a co-op nor a neighbourhood association, but during COVID-19, for example, we were there every day and for many people we were a landmark.

Our customers are hipsters, Bobos, guys who work in the City, but also people of more modest means, who work at the hospital just down the street. The idea of quality food should not be the reserve of just a few. I’m trying to develop a business that is sustainable, i.e., economically viable, but that fits in well with its community. I pay my staff on time and my suppliers too. But make no mistake, we work hard, we don’t bunk off.

Being a baker is a tough job in a difficult context

Yes, it’s clearly a difficult job.

During the pandemic, a lot of people started making bread at home. And that’s great because it did them a lot of good, especially for their wellbeing. The kneading itself is quite a meditative experience and then there’s the smell of the dough, the contact, the texture. Frankly, bringing a loaf of bread to life is an incredible sensation.

However, there is a huge difference between fantasising about changing jobs while you’re making your bread at home and actually doing it. The reality of the job is that you have to be there every day, every night, preparing your recipes, shaping your breads, baking them, etc. You carry heavy bags, you stay in the kitchen andit’s hard work. When you are standing all day, you get this feeling of producing, producing, without looking up, even in a craft environment. Some people find it too hard in the end.

Our job is a physical, technical and scientific one because dough is a living material.  Depending on the heat, the cold, the hygrometry, it doesn’t react in the same way and you have to adapt.

And of course, being a baker also means being a company director, with all the different hats that you have to wear in today’s world: communicating, selling, managing, recruiting. So yes, you have to keep your feet on the ground. Because I haven’t been a baker all my life,  I often feel like an imposter compared to other bakers. However, I think that I may be a little ahead of the game when it comes to managing a business. Having had a previous career has turned out to be very helpful.

You also have a bit of a militant side, don’t you?

No! I’m not here to give lessons to anyone. Not about bread, not about anything. When we launched L’Imprimerie, we could have made a big fuss in the press, made ourselves known in the City, played that card, but I didn’t feel justified going down that route. I’m not one of those bakers who’s been in the business forever, because I didn’t take a specific trade qualification like all the others, and maybe also because today I use my American passport more than my French one.

So yes, there are things that make us happy, like when we were voted best pain au chocolat in New York: we feel that people recognise that we do the job properly. But that’s where it ends. There’s only one thing I want to do and that’s my job, properly!

I want to be at the heart of people’s lives, to create this place where they are happy to come, where they feel good. I want them to recognise us for the quality of what we sell them. Our customers decide what label they put on us.

Do they call us the neighbourhood’s super French bakery or the super queer bakery? That’s fine, just as long as we can see the word “super” in front. I’m not an activist, I’m here to keep my customers coming and coming back, to pay my bills at the end of the month, and to have fun in what I do every day.

Can you take us through the inception of Webhelp?

The company started on a whim. Afterwards, there are things that seem obvious, but at the time, it was more a question of intuition. It’s not entirely rational, you just feel that a combination of factors is there and you have to seize it. There is also a bit of luck, but as Pasteur said, “Chance favours only the prepared mind”, and I think I was prepared.

We realised that the Internet was turning into a huge library, so it needed a librarian. At a time when Google didn’t yet exist, the idea was to build a human-assisted search engine. We wanted to disrupt the world of the call centre by imagining a much more digitalised customer relationship, through interfaces such as emails, chats, videos, etc.

This idea was very successful and we quickly attracted big investors like Bernard Arnaud, via Europ@web, our first reference shareholder. We created a buzz and the product quickly gained notoriety but, it wasn’t profitable! At the time, monetisation through advertising and data worked well in theory but was very different in reality. Each time someone asked a question on the platform, we lost money, which meant I knew how many days were left before I had to rewrite my CV!

We remedied this by moving from B2C to B2B. We quickly won our first clients who were Internet service providers and the first e-commerce sites. We recruited ex-consultants from consulting firms to strengthen our upstream consulting, we came up with a very techy, innovative offer and we decided to relocate resources to reduce costs. All these decisions explain the early success of Webhelp, which then established itself in France as the new player in customer relations outsourcing.

If you had to share one piece of advice that you learned from your entrepreneurial adventure, what would it be?

I think we all too often underestimate a company’s potential for development. If I had a message to pass on to future entrepreneurs, it would be to look out for a world of opportunities and possibilities. The expression “the sky’s the limit” is true and even when you reach your goal, there’s always more territory to explore.

When we launched Webhelp, we set ourselves the goal of becoming the leader in France. This seemed like a far away objective for such a small company, but we succeeded. France represents 4.5% of the world’s GDP, which means that 95% of the wealth is elsewhere, so our next objective was to become number one in Europe. From where we stood, it seemed almost impossible to achieve but we did. So now, when I tell my teams that today’s objective is to be world number one, they think I’m crazy but I always tell them: “If you don’t laugh when I tell you about my objectives, then they are not ambitious enough!”

At the end of the day, the mountain always seems smaller once you’re at the top. This is something I have learned over the past 20 years. As an entrepreneur, it has been a real discovery to realise how much you should not be afraid of thinking big.

However, I have to admit that we have never had any serious failures. Of course there have been ups and downs and difficulties, but no major events that could have endangered the future of Webhelp. This is perhaps partly because we have a very sophisticated risk management system. Inevitably we take risks, because in order to move forward you have to be daring, but the thoroughness of our analysis means that we have never put the company at risk, even in the context of the 27 acquisitions we have made.

Do you attach particular importance to your professional environment?

I have one very strong belief that I repeat to my teams: start with the who not with the what. The women and men who work with us are more important than anything else is. For me, human capital is the combination of an individual’s intrinsic abilities – i.e., their skills on a subject – and their ethos. The right skills won’t work if the right mind set isn’t there.

I spend a lot of time recruiting the right people. I put ethos and mind set at the top of my recruitment criteria. Ethos in a company is like education in a family. You can train people in skills they don’t have, but you can’t change their ethos. Of course, there is no right or wrong ethos, but it doesn’t work to have too many different ones in a company. Diversity is important but it has its limits. A certain cultural homogeneity is necessary to avoid the risk of inertia. So we make sure we have as much diversity as possible in our ranks, while ensuring a certain cultural coherence that tallies with our company. The American professor and consultant Peter Drucker used to say “Culture eats strategy for breakfast”, and it is so true!

Are you prone to stress?

Yes, I am, but I think there are two forms of stress, one that paralyses and one that energises. The latter generates dopamine, and as far as I’m concerned, it increases my energy tenfold. When someone tells me: “With Audencia, compared to HEC and Centrale, you won’t necessarily get a job after your internship”, it stresses me out but motivates me at the same time! I perform better in difficult situations.

In previous interviews, you mention sporting activities. How do you fit sport into your busy routine?

I still manage to do a lot of sport. Rugby and tennis was for when I was younger; now it’s mostly skiing (hors-piste or sometimes extreme) and mountain activities in general (hiking, mountaineering, in winter and in summer)… I also manage to fit in a round of golf when I’m travelling to the four corners of the globe.

Think human, think peace appears on your computer wallpaper. Why did you write this?

Think Human is the Webhelp baseline that goes with our logo because in our industry, human resources are the most valuable asset. In the world of customer relations, the heart of the reactor is the human being.

We assist major brands with their customer interaction issues. We are a consulting firm, an IT firm and a contact centre operator all in one. Therefore, we either position ourselves as a technology company or as a human resources company. I believe that the essential resource is people, not technology. All companies in the sector can acquire the same technology. However, when you manage to retain human resources through the way you treat your employees, you have a competitive advantage that is difficult to copy. Webhelp is recognised for this very people-first approach. In R&D, my investment priorities are training, onboarding, people engagement initiatives, etc.

I also believe that Think Human should be at the heart of brand thinking, for two reasons. On the one hand, the digital effect means the balance of power between brands and consumers has changed in favour of the latter. Secondly, we have moved to an experience economy where we no longer judge just the cost-benefit of a product but also everything that happens before and after the purchase, i.e., the entire customer journey.

I added Think Peace on 24 February 2022, the date Russia invaded the Ukraine…

You took your base line, Think Human, to name your foundation…

We did indeed create the Think Human Foundation with the aim of generating giveback on the subjects of inclusion and education, interesting subjects related to the fact that we are in a very people-intensive business. Initially, it was a fund supported by the company’s founders and shareholders. Now, the idea is to get all employees to participate, even if they only give a few euros. A few euros multiplied by 120,000 people makes for a sizeable annual budget.

What are you most proud of in your career?

Whenever I visit Webhelp sites around the world, I always take the time to have round table discussions with the employees who work in the contact centres. I want to know their take on the company’s culture by asking them the question: “How do you talk about Webhelp to your friends and family? I am very proud of the consistency of their answers, which underline that we make a difference through our social management policy. I am very touched by this. The consistency of our HR policy throughout the company is probably the thing I am most proud of.

Can you take us through a typical day for you?

There are two. The first is when I get to work from home. I can get a lot done by video. In this case, I like to get up early; I start by reading the papers, working and doing 45 minutes of sport. By 9.30am, I’m ready for my first meetings. I work almost seven days a week. I lighten up a bit at the weekend but I still work a bit because I like it.
The second sort of day is when I am travelling. We are present in about sixty countries, with 230 production centres and contact centres. I have to go and see my customers, accompany my teams so I spend more than 200 days a year travelling.

Do you nurture an entrepreneurial spirit in your five children?

It’s important to be influential without being manipulative or coercive. I don’t want to interfere; they have to find their own way and there are no wrong routes to go down. Just because I’m an entrepreneur doesn’t mean they have to do the same! The value of example, which is valid whatever the profession, is the desire to do well, discipline, seriousness, effort. Personally, I try to do everything to the full, and not just on the job.

Your LinkedIn profile mentions that you are a graduate of the Wine and Spirit Education Trust. I guess this means you have a favourite wine!

That’s correct! I am passionate about discovering vineyards all over the world. My favourite wine is Emidio Pépé from the Abruzzo region in Italy… to accompany an autumn meal (with game and mushrooms…).

What are your plans for the weekend?

Some friends are coming to stay with us in Brussels. We’re going to take a little trip to Bruges and Antwerp. A bit of sightseeing, a bit of sport, and a bit of work of course! (laughs)

Why did you choose to focus on homelessness services?

I have been a volunteer ever since I was first a student, distributing meals and warm clothes and providing support to homeless people. With Soliguide, a platform for directing people experiencing homelessness to the services they need, I created the tool I needed as a volunteer.

The starting point of Soliguide was an existing need. In order to point people in the right direction, volunteers compile all the useful information in the field of food aid, socio-professional support, hygiene, health, training, learning French, etc. Then they have to check everything: is it possible to find the right person? Then we have to check everything: is a given structure open at a given time, have they changed their opening hours, is this aid still available, etc.?

Beyond collecting data, and putting it with other similar data, there was the question of making it reliable and available in a simple and practical way for all users, whether individuals or associations.

This is how Soliguide was born. It’s not an extraordinary invention, just a tool that’s simple and uncluttered but extremely powerful because it’s designed to be shared. To make access as easy as possible, we have multiplied the channels with a website, an app, paper lists, a Whatsapp number, etc. We even created the Solidarity API to enable other organisations to retrieve our data and use it to deliver their own support solutions. For example, the Entourage Association, which creates links and local activities for excluded or isolated people, works with our data: we don’t see this as competition at all, but as essential cooperation supporting people in insecure situations.

How does Soliguide work in practice?

Our work essentially consists of collecting, cross-referencing, making reliable and delivering data. Soliguide currently has nearly 50,000 services listed for people experiencing difficulties in 29 departments across France. I am very proud to say that we now cover over 50% of the French population. In 2022, Soliguide enabled more than 1.5 million searches: we can count our impact terms of in hundreds of thousands of lives.

Solinum welcomed its first employee in 2018 and today there are 32 of us raising funds, rolling out projects and circulating our actions to people and organisations working in the solidarity sector. Above all, we co-construct with them because we don’t copy our projects from one territory to another, we adapt them to local realities.

We are subsidised by local and state authorities, particularly because we facilitate the work and increase the impact of social actors. We discovered that we were saving society money and improving the efficiency of public policies: we avoid duplication and holes in the system and we rationalise public decisions. This became very clear during the pandemic.

What impact did the pandemic have on Solinum’s activity?

We were extremely busy in the departments where we were already established and word spread very quickly to the other areas that asked us to deploy urgently. It wasn’t always possible but we did our best.

Imagine how tough lockdown was for people on the street: how did they know what was open and what was closed, how did they know where to find food, etc.? The information on Soliguide enabled us to set up alerts when, for example, all the services in an area were closed.

At the outset of the pandemic, we only covered seven departments and we noted an overuse rate of +200%. In 2021, thanks to an extremely tight deployment methodology, we opened fifteen new departments, which prepared us for the Ukrainian crisis, to which we reacted immediately by translating Soliguide into Ukrainian and identifying the specific structures most needed by refugees from Ukraine.

These successive crises highlight the importance of real-time information for both individuals and public authorities. What we are looking at today is the use of data analysis for social policies in each territory.

You mentioned Solinum’s financials; it’s hard to imagine the solidarity sector being a good fit for a young management school graduate

Let’s face it, my parents would probably have preferred to see me follow a more lucrative career path but it’s one that is in tune with what I want from life. If I earned more by doing something else, would I be as happy? I don’t think so.

That doesn’t mean that you can’t earn a salary by working in this field, the lines are moving on that, but obviously you earn less than in a big company that is destroying the planet.

I earn enough to satisfy my needs. I have enough to satisfy my material needs while still being able to satisfy my immaterial needs, give meaning to what I do and make me want to get up in the morning. The only absolute resource we do have is time, but are we using it wisely? I don’t want a life where I start the week thinking: “Can’t wait for Friday!” or “I can’t wait to be somewhere other than my job!”

My ratio is to earn enough to afford what I need without squandering my time at the expense of the planet, society and myself. The difference in salary is therefore the price of my personal wellbeing.

What is it like to be a woman leader in the solidarity sector?

As a young woman, you’re kind of looking for trouble!

I have been asked more than once if I was the trainee. Beyond the anecdote, which doesn’t hurt me too much, it’s clear that my credibility is at stake. In all walks of life, people look to men first, even in this sector where there are only women in the field. The French only have the feminine term for “social worker”, by the way.

We are in a female-dominated sector, but, more often than not, directed by men in the round table events and on the boards of directors.

I try to make my own path and get things done; actions give credibility. I don’t take offence at what people say or think, I always try to move forward and build on what I achieve.

It’s vital that we look at diversity from another angle, including from the homelessness angle, which is much more contrasted than people imagine. We are not just talking about homeless men, but also about young LGBTQ+ people rejected by their entourage, women escaping violent or abusive relationships, entire families impoverished by migration or social breakdowns. This image of homelessness being a male environment has always been false but today it is increasingly untrue and the pandemic has not helped. We are seeing more and more students using soup kitchens; they used to hold down summer jobs but these disappeared after the pandemic.

The subject is not me or the way people look at women leaders, the subject is how we can all work better together, how we can multiply the viewpoints to better understand and deal with the problems.

You are also on the board of the French Red Cross, what does that entail?

I joined through 21, the Red Cross social innovation accelerator, when Solinum was supported for six months as part of a call for projects, and I fell in love with the organisation. That’s how, two years later, I ended up on the board.

The Red Cross is a very big machine, which may seem slow and heavy to an entrepreneur, but when it moves, it moves powerfully. In an emergency, we know where to be.

I’ve been on the board for a little over a year now. It’s a voluntary position that takes up two days every three months, in addition to the working committees. We study the Red Cross’s legal and strategic orientation to stay on target with the 2030 plan.

The volunteers have a variety of profiles, often with lots of experience, and I am happy to represent the younger generation. The different experiences and points of view enrich the debate, on ecological issues for example.

If you had to give one piece of advice to today’s students, would it be about engagement?

No, engagement is my thing, but not necessarily everyone else’s. I would tell students to search for what makes their heart beat faster and to go for it. Above all, I would tell them that all choices are justifiable even when they don’t seem to be part of a preordained or obvious path.

What can we wish you for the future?

For Solinum, to continue to grow. I don’t want us to become a big organisation, but I do want us to increase our impact. The curve must be exponential as we need to reach more and more people in France and then elsewhere, without increasing our costs tenfold.

For myself, just to finalise my move. My 30th birthday is not so far off and I’m finally leaving my tiny basement flat for somewhere bigger. Just goes to show, anything can happen.

How long will it be before you get the itch to do something else?

I’ve only had two real jobs since I graduated so it’s not as if I’m constantly changing. I think I’ll be good for a while now. For the moment, I’m happy to develop my two activities and I’m excited to see where they will take me. In The Netherlands, we say if a train comes along and you like it, just jump on it and see where it takes you. So that’s what I’ve been doing so far and I think that will be the same for my businesses. I really love what I’m doing it now and things are growing quite fast. However, I’m not saying that there won’t ever be a third or fourth company.

What are your best memories of Audencia?

Going to study in three different countries because the course I followed was taught in Nantes, Warsaw and Barcelona. In fact, I only spent one third of the MSc IM programme at Audencia. Altogether, it was an amazing 360° experience and I left with two lifelong best friends who I continue to see very regularly.

My experience in Dutch schools was quite impersonal, you just walk in, you do your classes, and you go home. That’s it. When I arrived at Audencia, it was completely different; there was a welcoming committee and an induction day, what a great start to the year. I think my first and last day are still very clear in my mind as they were so intense.

My classmates and I were all living in these small apartments in Nantes. Taghi and Nariman from Azerbaijan were my neighbours on one side and Cyril and Baptiste from France on the other. It was a tiny village of holiday homes with a very small swimming pool too. I remember it was just so much fun. One of my classmates had a car and although it was scary going round the roundabouts because he wasn’t used to driving on the right hand side of the road, we did some great road trips!

How do you let off steam?

I love pushing back the boundaries, being outside, travelling and climbing mountains. I love walking with my dog – she’s big, a cross between a boxer and a labrador and I take her for a 2-hour walk every day. Connecting with nature is something I enjoy as it revitalises me.

What advice would you have for students today?

One of my former bosses asked me to become a mentor for their start-ups and starting entrepreneurs. I recently participated in a women’s leadership session and one of the questions I was asked was how did I get to be so in control and so self-assured and confident about everything? My advice was stop worrying about being scared because everyone’s terrified underneath. You just get better at covering it up! Again, I would say just do whatever you’re terrified of. Those are the best things.

What are your plans for the weekend?

It’s going to be Kings Day so I’ll be going to this big festival. It’s great to get our social lives back after not seeing anyone for so long.

How did you become an expert in sustainable agribusiness?

After 6 months in Nantes and a further 6 months in Sao Paulo, I came home a different person. The programme totally opened my mind to sustainable thinking. I felt ready to apply all this knowledge and to run a business that would be critical in developing my rural environment. As a country, we have been resting on our laurels for too long, spoiled by abundant diamond reserves. We have been importing food excessively, just because we could afford it – not a sustainable strategy. Food waste is also a cultural issue: for instance, at funerals and weddings, hosts always provide excessive amounts of food, as a wealth indicator. We must also work harder at conserving water and electricity. I have made it my mission to change both the system and the mindset.

With a few agro-dealers, we had this idea of setting up an event that would have educational values beyond the traditional trade shows. I pushed the sustainability agenda, we invited all the key players to join the conversation, from the grassroots organisations all the way to the senior executives at the diamond companies, and I started leading a sort of green revolution. Soon after, Lucara, a Canadian diamond Company operating in Botswana approached me. They had heard about my work as they were looking to expand into sustainable agriculture, and they employed me as a CSR consultant.

How did you make the jump from farming to politics?

The president of Botswana is also originally a farmer. I first met him when he was vice-president and I challenged him on different policies. I remember thinking: “He is eloquent and smart, a visionary; he is taking the time to answer my questions, I can see myself working with this guy!” My vision was of a transformed rural economy where a vibrant agricultural sector would help people move back from the towns to the villages. I was applying that model as a consultant and although I was impacting only a few people’s lives, I had proven that I had nailed it. The VP paid attention, we got to know each other better, and I invited him to open some sessions at our show. In 2019, just a few days after he won the presidential elections, he asked me to submit my CV. I assumed he was looking for an advisor or a public officer, but in truth, I had no idea what I was applying for. Straight afterwards, I left for a holiday with friends in Durban, South Africa.

I will never forget the day I received that phone call! We were getting ready to go out for dinner and feeling blissfully relaxed after time in the spa. My phone rang; I glanced at the screen and yelled at my friend, “It’s His Excellency! It’s the President!” He said that he needed to meet me urgently and that he would send a car to pick me up from the airport. I just managed to squeeze in a quick shopping session, because, as a farm girl, I had no formal clothes. An hour later, wearing my brand-new suit, I was in his office at the State House and I had the shock of my life when he asked me to join his cabinet and actually be part of the decision-makers. He asked me for my thoughts and I accepted on the spot. I explained that the job was in line with what I had been advocating for years and was an opportunity for me to build a sustainable future for my kids and the generations to come. To which he replied, “Great, now let’s get to work”. In November 2019, I joined the ministry.

Has your financial and social status had an impact on your family?

20 years ago, when I was going around farms in South Africa with my mum, I spotted the wonderful Stanford Lake College with its first-world aura. I knew that my mother didn’t have the means to send me there, but I dreamt that one day my children would. Today, I am proud that the elder of my two boys – who are 14 and 9 – is a pupil there. The wealth that I have achieved through farming has also allowed me to make sure that my parents are comfortable. I have built a nice house for them in our home village. Now my mother doesn’t need to travel to South Africa. They have moved to my farm where I have delegated the day-to-day operations to a team.

When she realised how fulfilling it was for me, my mother began to support my decision to go into farming. My parents admire my move into politics. The other day, my dad was queuing at the bank and a customer told him “Have a seat sir, come on; your daughter is the minister!” He was flattered and beaming with pride, but he didn’t want to appear arrogant. Personally, I still haven’t really adjusted to my new status! I don’t call myself a minister, I just see my job as a fantastic opportunity to transform my country. I have not defined the position yet and I do not let the position define me. If, at the end of the five-year term, I am able to implement my vision and deliver results, I will be the happiest person in the world, and will start calling myself “the minister who made a difference”.

Can you share some of the boldest moves that you have made in your career?

In 2003, I felt the need to be challenged further so I joined a non-Chinese company. Foreign businesses in mainland China had higher standards and requirements for talents at that time. At one point, differences with the VP of our US-based company came to a head when I discovered that he had been involved in some malpractice. My job made me directly accountable to the Board of Directors, and my professional ethics were telling me to report him. Before I did so, I reached out to him privately to confront him. When it became clear that he would not resign, I decided to leave because there was no way that I could work with someone dishonest.

The same year, I made another bold decision by setting up Sichuan Jinlitong Financial Consulting Co Ltd, a financial consulting company. My husband is a financial expert, which helped me gain expertise in science, tech and real estate loans, as well as the bank conditions and risk preferences. At the end of the year, I had signed contracts with a large number of state-owned companies, such as the giant, Chengdu Telecom, as well as real estate development companies. Soon after, in August 2004, upon recommendation from one of my clients, I set up my own tax firm.

The way I went about setting this second company was equally bold… At that time, the Chinese government was in the process of reforming tax firms throughout the country, and they had not authorised the registration of any new tax practitioners for the past two years. I was aware of this legal challenge, but I was motivated by the pressing needs of my clients. So I decided to go straight to the secretary general of the tax administration centre. I told her that unlike many other applicants, I already had a long list of clients ready to be served, and asked her to trust me to develop my business in an exceptional manner. My appeal was successful and my papers were processed in a month: a record!

I noticed on your CV that in 2000 you did an MBA at Sichuan University, in 2010 an EMBA programme at SWUFE (Southwest University of Finance & Economics), and then in 2015 a DBA with Audencia in Chengdu. Where does this thirst for further education come from?

People often perceive me as a tough female CEO, a sort of business shark, but I think of myself as an ordinary woman on a perpetual quest for knowledge. In 2010, after I launched my own venture, I felt that it had been too long since I obtained my MBA. I had to keep my knowledge up to date in order to meet the ever-evolving needs of my clients.

What were your reasons for choosing this DBA and what are your most important take homes?

What impressed me the most was the international outlook of the programme. In the years to come, I want to make my company the most international of the domestic tax firms. I plan to take advantage of the Hainan Free Trade Port to take my firm from the Sichuan province to the international stage. My goal is to build up my scale and reputation and one day compete with the Big Four (KPMG, E&Y, PwC, & DTT). I have to confess being a liberal and romantic person at heart, so France had always been a bit of a fantasy for me, and I had been to France several times during my youth. The prospect of being taught by French professors (in tandem with Chinese professors), and to come to France (Nantes) for a 2-week learning trip definitely helped sway my decision!

I graduated four years ago, and I can tell that the programme has opened my mind to what matters most in order to succeed as an entrepreneur. I learnt that focusing on sales performance is not enough and how critical it is to integrate management into the entrepreneurial process. I have also become more caring towards my staff and adopted some small rituals like noting down their birthdays. My critical analysis and problem-solving abilities have also improved.

Are you still close to your DBA classmates?

Very much so. We were a small group and only five of us graduated in 2018. Studying so intensely together over three whole years created some strong friendships. Professionally I help them out with taxation queries and have even taken some as clients.

Do you feel that you have encountered additional challenges because of your gender?

I honestly don’t think so. I have been able to do everything that men in my field do … except maybe drinking and smoking, … this is just not part of my lifestyle (laugh)! And I am proud that a large majority of my employees are women.

Do you ever regret not having achieved your childhood dream of becoming a teacher?

I have no regrets because my aspirations have changed, and I feel fulfilled by my job. I create value for my clients through my professionalism and dedication to solving their financial problems which gives me pride and satisfaction. And actually, I can find similarities between my work and being a teacher. When I give a lecture on taxation, an interpretation of taxation policies and guidance to taxation solutions, I am sharing and passing on knowledge. Besides, I dedicate a lot of energy to projects that support the younger generation. I volunteer as a mentor in several universities and have set up a scholarship programme in partnership with both SWUFE and Hainan Normal University to open up opportunities for deserving students.

Do you have any words of advice to share with the students and alumni from Audencia and SWUFE?

I would urge them not compare themselves to others, because this is detrimental to their emotional wellbeing. Secondly, it pays to be diligent. I get the impression that the new generation of students lack grit, they give up too soon and tend to grumble, blaming any failure on their parents who are never rich or powerful enough. Thirdly, keep learning. Surround yourself with interesting people and insightful books. “The Way of Life” by Kazuo Inamori had a profound impact on me. He is a globally renowned entrepreneur who became a monk at the age of sixty-eight and advocated altruism in the business world.

What adjectives do you think your colleagues would use to describe you?

I actually surveyed them ahead of this interview! (laugh). This is mainly what they came up with: self-disciplined, smart in her thinking and in her appearance, well educated, strong on emotional intelligence.

Strict time keeping is a principle that you have maintained throughout your life. Does that make it difficult for some of your colleagues to adapt to your standards?

Initially it must have been hard for some partners and subordinates to adapt to my system, but after communication and guidance from me, they are more or less used to it and working together is a smooth and pleasant experience.

How are you bringing up your son; which principles have you kept from your parents and which new ones have you adopted?

I have definitely passed on time management and a set of ground rules to my son. I am proud that from an early age he has understood the concept of respect. I advocate setting up rules and enforcing them democratically, as a way of avoiding arguments. I often say to him that home is a place for love not arguments. This is my recipe for harmonious family relationships. Since my son was three years old, we have held weekly family discussions and this certainly helps to minimise conflicts.

However, I have also adopted modern educational principles. He has had more choices than I did, such as which language to learn, which country to study in or which industry to start his career in.

Has your son chosen a different trajectory to yours?

In fact, he has also gone into entrepreneurship. He graduated from New York University, and when a Free Trade Port was established in Hainan, he felt the urge to contribute to the island’s development and make a success of himself. He started his own business in the main city, Haikou. My son is my biggest pride. If I have achieved anything so far, it is that I have raised an emotionally intelligent son.

What sort of childhood did you have?

I was born in a poor rural village called Lang Co, not far from Hué in the centre of Vietnam. My parents were primary school teachers and as a family we didn’t have much money. I don’t recall my older sister, my two younger brothers and I having much to play with, except for a chess board. At the end of the school day, our parents insisted we spend our time studying, which suited my quiet personality. I never joined any school trips, to save my parents money and have more time to study which is why you won’t find me in any of the group photos that my former classmates post on Facebook…

What was the experience of moving from your rural village to the big city like?

There was no high school in our village, so when I turned 14, my family moved to Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam’s most populous city. My parents didn’t continue teaching because of the complicated bureaucracy involved in transferring from one school to another. In any case, their salary would have been too low to support four children. They had to juggle various small jobs, so our first five years in HCMC were particularly tough.

The transition was a big shock for me. When we arrived, I had to put my education on hold for one year, to earn money and help support my parents. Luckily, my cousin who was doing some electrical work on construction sites offered me a job. But it was absolutely not a vocation back then! At that age, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, and I couldn’t wait to go back to school.

A vivid memory I have from that time is back in 1994 with my brothers. We were desperate to watch the Champions League Final, but our parents didn’t own a TV. The highly anticipated AC Milan vs. FC Barcelona game was on at midnight Vietnamese time and we followed it lying on our beds, ears pressed to the wall to try and catch the commentary from our neighbours’ TV. It was then that I made a promise to my brothers that with my first salary after graduation, I would buy a TV for every room. From then on, I channelled all my frustrations into my studies.

Why did you choose to study civil engineering?

After finishing high school, I was tempted to study IT because I was in awe of IT engineers! Instead, I made the more rational decision of a civil engineering degree. I knew that the Vietnamese housing infrastructure was still poor and that the construction sector would bring me job security. My parents encouraged me in that direction, saying that if I couldn’t find a job in a large company after graduating, there would always be work on private building projects.

Why did you end up spending almost 10 years in higher education?

I have always been studious but it was only when I reached high school that I realised how education had the power to pull us out of poverty. Several times during my academic journey, I felt this sense of responsibility to become more aggressive in my focus and to be successful.

When I finished my second year at the University of Technology, I realised how much I wanted to improve my English and how it would help me to earn a better living. When I explained to my dad that I was considering quitting engineering for English studies though, he put his foot down! We reached a compromise and I studied English at evening classes, a routine that gave me an average of 5 hours of sleep each night, but I’ve never regretted it.

Later, after five years working in construction, it became clear that I would need extra academic skills to move my career forwards. The idea of an MBA came out of a desire to hone the practical knowledge I had in finance and marketing. The French Vietnamese School of Management had a partnership with Audencia but only a handful of top performing students were eligible to spend the second year in France, and benefit from a scholarship. I studied extra hard and finished third out of 65 students and the rest is history…

How did you career move forward in the early days?

I started as a site engineer for a large construction company. My task was to supervise builders, ensure safety measures were respected, and that construction was progressing as per schedule. My English skills paid off because my manager picked me to read contracts and attend meetings with international clients and property developers.

But the reality was that I was still spending most of my days – and many nights – in the dust and stifling heat of the construction sites. I knew I could take up more interesting responsibilities than shouting out instructions to builders. One day my wish came true when a senior Taiwanese client of mine made me the offer of becoming one of their project managers. This job not only allowed me to work in an office with normal office hours, but also broaden my skills in architecture, finance, sales and marketing. Soon I was able to handle entire projects from end to end. I was acquiring all these management skills on the job, but at some point, I knew that my next step should be an MBA.

So, tell us about your experience of spending a year at Audencia as an MBA student?

I came to France in 2007 and my wife came with me, but frankly I didn’t have much time to enjoy Nantes with her, nor socialise with the other students, because the MBA programme was intense. We had to read our textbooks before class and prepare questions for the teachers… not the other way around in the way I was used to. I initially found the learning culture challenging. I was expected to interact in class, but Vietnamese people traditionally don’t open up in a group setting, and I am naturally reserved. By the end of the programme, I felt more comfortable with this format though and I can say the experience changed me.

I heard that you left Audencia with a special “souvenir”?

That’s right! My wife was pregnant during our stay in Nantes and our daughter was born in Lyon where a close friend of ours lived. After one month, our family of three came back to my tiny student room in Nantes where we tried to keep a low profile to avoid complaints from our fellow residents. On top of that, I had my thesis to write… it was certainly a testing time! Our daughter was born in the Vietnamese year of the mouse and because the word mouse translates as “souris” in French, we called her “Suri”, a name which works in Vietnamese.

What motivated you to set up your own company?

Once back in Vietnam, I returned to work for my previous employer, but after three years, I understood that I would not exploit the full potential of my MBA in a large company. My idea was to set up a consultancy firm to see how I could apply my knowledge and test my capabilities. I was 34 and wanted to have a shot at becoming an entrepreneur and businessman. One of the architectural projects I carried out before leaving my salaried job was the first in Vietnam to include sustainable specifications. My MBA helped me identify sustainable construction as a high potential niche that could provide me with a competitive advantage. I researched the market and concluded that I was the only one in the country with an MBA combined with a double expertise in construction and sustainability.

Another motivation was my frustration with the wage scale in Vietnam that penalised local talent unfairly. In my previous company, I discovered that an American colleague of mine was paid 5 times more than me! I wanted to prove that Vietnamese could play in the same league as non-Vietnamese and this is why I named my company GreenViet. I am very proud of the fact that we now win tenders against big international companies.

What first inspired you to work in sustainability?

When I was younger, I read a newspaper article about Scandinavian “passive houses”. I was impressed by the concept of a house that can balance its energy, is naturally cool in summer and efficiently insolated in winter, all with minimal energy consumption and a sleek design.

How did you manage to sell your innovative business proposition?

The first three years were a struggle. Vietnamese living standards were low compared to places like Singapore, Malaysia or even Thailand. The market didn’t understand the need for sustainable projects and demand was low. But I knew that we had to get our act together, hire the right staff, and put processes in place before the giants from Singapore and the US jumped in. My priority was to keep the company afloat and pay the salaries of my small team. My business finally took off in 2015: people’s living standards had improved by then, as so did their awareness of health and of sustainability issues.

Could you tell me about a GreenViet project that you would like to highlight?

Approximately 20% of our activity is office buildings, and we also occasionally build schools and hotels, but the bulk of our portfolio is factories. One that makes me particularly proud is a garment factory for Decathlon near Ho Chi Minh City – the first sustainable factory for this prestigious French manufacturer. We set up a smart natural daylight system that drastically reduces electricity use. During the day, the building needs virtually no air conditioning or artificial lighting. There is a spacious cafeteria looking over a fruit garden with mangoes, jackfruits, oranges, vegetables… where you would typically find a standard lawn. The client filmed the whole building process and showcased it at their annual gathering of factory owners in Paris a few years ago – one of my proudest achievements!

On a personal level, are you optimistic or pessimistic about our ability to preserve the environment?

There is no doubt that the situation is worsening alarmingly, but I am optimistic that, collectively, we will find solutions. Amid the chaos of the Covid-19 pandemic, there has definitely been a surge in awareness. I believe that several long-lasting positive trends will come out of the crisis. For example, before 2020, online business meetings were a rarity in Vietnam. Now I don’t think my clients would ever again expect me to drive or fly 2 hours for a 1-hour meeting!

How did your professional success impact your family?

My academic efforts have paid off. While I was at Audencia, my brother expressed the wish to go and study in a university in the US. My dad called me for advice because we didn’t have enough savings to support him. Motivated by the belief that my MBA would soon allow me to earn a higher salary, I was able to sponsor my brother’s studies. That was a wise move; my brother studied in the US, graduated and is now settled there.

My parents are immensely proud of what I have accomplished. I did keep my promise and bought them three TV sets with my first paycheck! But more importantly, with my financial support, they were able to retire early after an exhausting life. Fortunately, my kids are growing up in more favourable conditions than I did, but I often share with them the hardships I faced. It is important that they understand where I come from and that they remain grounded.

Is there anything in your background that can explain why you have chosen the path that led you to where you are today?

I come from the Vendée, a rural region in western France, where my father farmed and my mother was a leather worker. At first glance, it would appear that I have taken a completely different direction to my parents. However, I can clearly identify the values that I have inherited from them. My father taught me the importance of common sense and hard work, both essential to survive as a farmer. I come from a home where it was important to be humble and to be aware of the value of things.
I suppose that my ecological awareness comes from growing up in the countryside. However, it’s only now that I live in Paris that I have realised how I miss living in an environment close to nature, where life is simpler.
As for my liberal views on gender equality, my parents were good role models and displayed a rather modern approach. I am lucky that my family members have been supportive with my life choices.

What were you like as a child?

It depends on who you ask! My friends saw me as sociable and fun loving. My parents would tell you that I was boisterous and needed boundaries. However, my teachers would remember me as a focused and engaged pupil.

Why didn’t you choose farming as a career?

Farm life and its symbiotic relationship with nature appealed to me, so I did consider this option but the financial perspectives were too precarious. I enjoyed school but I needed to find purpose and practical applications to remain motivated. One day when I was in high school, I visited the library to browse through job descriptions. I discovered the buyer’s role and I liked how it sounded; outward looking and transversal. I imagined that it would fit my personality, as it requires resilience, as well as an inquisitive nature in order to come up with insightful competitive intelligence.

How did your experience at Audencia have an impact on you?

The best thing that I got out of Audencia has to be meeting Matthieu Batteur. We met during our first year back in 2005, immediately clicked, had a few wild nights out and became close friends. We also happened to cross paths professionally after we graduated, and the rest is history!

Apart from the high quality academic and practical training from the school, my other take homes are the countless moments of intense friendship. These years were genuinely some of the most powerful and vivid moments of my life.

Why did you decide to start your career in some of the world’s largest multinationals?

When it came to procurement, these companies appeared to have the most advanced strategy. I joined L’Oréal as a buyer, then LVMH, and finally Kraft-Mondelez. In this last role, I discovered the American corporate culture at its best: when you prove that you are motivated and competent, you get promoted quickly.

What motivated you to take the leap and set up your own company?

After 6 years at Mondelez, I felt that I’d covered the main aspects of my job. I didn’t feel challenged enough, and I knew that others could deliver results as well as me. I felt too young to see my motivation and pleasure falter and by then, several of my friends had shifted into entrepreneurship. This career path fascinated me, and I itched to make the move too but annoyingly, I was lacking a concept.
Luckily, a combination of events played out in my favour. At Mondelez I had the opportunity to go for voluntary redundancy. Then my friend Matthieu Batteur who was working for Gilbert – a leading pharmaceutical company specialising in baby products – asked me to advise him as a procurement consultant. The decision to set up my consultancy firm was relatively easy because I didn’t have much to invest, my risk was low, and at 30 I knew I could bounce back if I failed. My plan had always been to use this as a stepping-stone to generate some revenue that I could invest in setting up my own brand.
Shortly after that, Matthieu suggested we go into an entrepreneurial project together. The advantage was that he had come up with a strong concept for a baby nappies product that his lab wasn’t interested in developing. Matthieu called me on Christmas Eve 2017, and two years later we launched Les Petits Culottés.

Would you say that you set up your company as a knee-jerk reaction against the large corporations you’d worked in previously?

I am well aware that we couldn’t have launched our business so successfully without the experience gained at mega companies, so I certainly won’t bite the hands that fed me. However, I am convinced that the quality of the products they offer must be addressed. Historically, nappies have been produced using petrochemicals because the materials are cheap and stable. However, scientific studies are unequivocal; there is also a negative impact on consumers’ health. The whole business model, based on price wars, high margins for mass distribution, high volumes and cheap raw materials, has to evolve quickly and soon. It is challenging for such huge vessels to pivot whilst maintaining the same financial performance.
In a sense, it was easier for us because we were aware of these issues from the get-go. Our CSR principles and our financial model are not contradictory, and we don’t have any shareholders to fight against. Fortunately, more and more consumers realise that their credit card can be used as a ballot paper. As long as they have access to information and alternative products, they have the power.

How did you come up with the concept for Les Petits Culottés?

When we first started to research the market, we were hugely surprised to discover the lack of regulations in the baby hygiene sector. And we weren’t even parents yet! It is insane when you think that these products come into direct contact with a baby’s sensitive skin. The product composition is opaque, and studies have shown that the big manufacturers’ products contain endocrine-disrupting chemicals.
We also learnt that less than 5% of nappies bought in France are manufactured here. Our vision from the outset was to produce in France using healthy, natural, and, of course, highly absorbent materials. We also made a point of making our products accessible price-wise, the trickiest objective to achieve. To bring our costs down, our strategy was to cut out all the intermediaries and to sell from the manufacturer straight to the consumers. This is where my rural common sense came in handy! We ended 2021 with 30,000 subscribers, 15M€ turnover, a dozen permanent employees, about 60 million nappies coming off the factory lines, and above all, a viable business.

Why did you decide to branch out into feminine hygiene products?

Many mothers who were fans of our nappies came to us enquiring whether we offered a feminine hygiene range with similar qualities. This sector is equally poorly regulated, so this is why we came up with “Les Petites Choses”, a 100% organic cotton range. Our products are available for free in about 2,000 dispensers in partner schools and universities and we are also present in more than 3,000 pharmacies in France. We are very proud to be part of the fight against period poverty among students.

Are you competing against Jho, the organic feminine hygiene brand, founded by fellow Audencian Coline Mazeyrat?

We have a different pricing and distribution strategy from Jho. However, there is plenty of space on the market for players like us, and I actually consider that our main competitors are the historical leaders. Ultimately, we need the eco-friendly sector to take over, and growing side by side with Jho isa good sign!

By going into business with your best friend, you have given the lie to the saying “Don’t mix business with pleasure”. How do you make your partnership work?

Personally, I would find it much riskier to partner with someone I have only just met rather than with a friend I have known for 15 years. Entrepreneurship is intense and often stressful: it’s important to have someone to share the responsibility for decisions. Our strength is that we have complementary talents and interests. The way we split the workload came naturally. Matthieu has a salesy temperament, so he excels in the commercial and marketing side of things. I have an analytical mind, which led me to look after the manufacturing, logistical, and legal operations.
When we started Les Petits Culottés, we had no product to show and the project consisted of a few slides; the risk that we were asking our potential partners to take was high. I believe our duo’s complementarity and the determination that we exuded were essential in winning their trust.
We don’t agree on everything though… which is healthy! Our partnership is strong, but, as in any relationship, it needs to be nurtured. We set aside two weeks every year to retreat to the countryside, take stock of what we have accomplished, ensure each other’s buy-in on future decisions and maintain a coherent path towards our dream.

What professional achievement are you most proud of?

I think I’ve achieved a good balance with my personal life, which was not a slam dunk because we launched the company just when my baby was born. For the company to be long lived, I am aware that I need to go easy on myself. Having a close-knit support network is equally essential: I know I can rely on my friends and family at challenging moments.
I am also proud of the fact that every day when I step into the office, people greet me with a smile. The economic impact we are making is gratifying. We have not just generated jobs, we have contributed to re-industrialising Brittany and the Vosges regions where the two production sites are located. For some of our products we are even partnering with a vocational centre that employs about 20 people with disabilities.
I could also mention our 1,600 5-star rating reviews on Google. Knowing that so many parents love our brand values and that our products help them have nights that are more peaceful is a real boost. I am always baffled that so many customers take the time to write messages of appreciation. One mother, who had just cancelled her subscription because her child was now potty-trained, felt she had to write to us to explain. She said that she was so fond of our company that she almost considered having another baby! Last week, another one wrote “Les Petits Culottés is the best thing that came out of the Vosges region aside from the world-famous Munster cheese”. This is simply the ultimate praise!

Let’s jump in with both feet: you are in a field where we would expect to find women. What do say to those who might think that you lack legitimacy in your understanding of women’s concerns?

Actually, being a man in this field tends to put a smile on people’s faces, and that’s a plus, which has helped get us noticed. We have always positioned ourselves as the cheeky challengers who want to shift the lines. The good news is that they already have: just look at the paternity leave terms that are being extended in several countries. Fathers have opinions and new ideas to share. And mothers actually appreciate men being involved, including in feminine hygiene products. The objective is to achieve progress together by minimising our environmental impact, re-localising, and closing the gender gap. For this, we need all genders on board.

After discussing tampons and newborns’ stools all week long, do you compensate by pumping iron, fixing cars and going hunting at the weekend?

No, there’s no testosterone surge on Friday evening! Quite the opposite: working in this field has made me broody and encouraged me to have children. It also motivated me to learn more from women. Both Matthieu and I are totally at ease with our roles.

What piece of advice would you share with Audencia students and alumni who are thinking about setting up a purpose-driven company?

Don’t believe that entrepreneurship is the only road to success. You can find fulfilment as a company employee. Don’t over-plan, and take experiences one at a time. If you do decide to set up your own venture, don’t underestimate the importance of a viable business model. Dig out your notes from your Audencia years.

Working for a passion or a cause and not just for profit is highly rewarding and your enthusiasm will help you to convince and motivate people around you. But be mindful not to lose yourself. For me, there can be no satisfaction in achieving professional success on its own.. My biggest nightmare would be to realise in 20 years’ time that I have missed out on my daughter’s childhood. So, be ruthless in managing your time, which will be hard at the beginning. Even more so when you’re working from home because of the blurred boundaries. Find time to squeeze those sport breaks into your diary, and carry on reading and staying curious.

Your career seems very consistent, as all your projects support vulnerable users. Are there any personal reasons that explain why you decided to work in this sector?

Contrary to what people might assume, I am not someone who particularly stands out for his empathy – unlike my wife, for example. I first landed in the personal assistance sector by accident: in 2005, a transport company for people with reduced mobility recruited me. At last, I was feeling socially useful and I immediately felt comfortable in this sector. However, there were leadership issues: the director’s toxic behaviour made life miserable for the whole team. I knew that the company wouldn’t go far so I left after 6 months.

I then went about launching a competing service because of the low entry barriers. It took me four months to set up the company; I obtained a passenger transport diploma, bought three vehicles and launched the business with a personal start-up capital of 8,000 euros.

I suppose I can trace my choice back to the traumatic arrival of my twin boys, who were born very prematurely at 6½ months. They came close to growing up with multiple disabilities and for the first time I was confronted with the reality of parents who raise disabled children.

Why did you choose the “SCOP” as a legal structure?

I’m definitely not a political activist, but my previous experiences made me realise that the corporate model where ownership is in the hands of a couple of guys or an external pension fund, totally dehumanises the work. I wanted to go for a different sort of entrepreneurship, where employees could become shareholders and associates; and, in my own way, transform the hyper capitalistic system. The SCOP status -a cooperative and participatory company- was exactly what I was after. It guarantees a long-term ethical basis for business practice. This status helps attract people with similar values. It also serves to create a vision and can boost the success of a project, because it meets the aspirations of employees and customers alike.

This model seems to make sense on so many levels. How do you explain that it’s not more developed?

Anyone who is serious about launching their own company devotes a huge amount of their time, energy and soul to it. It is totally legitimate for founders to expect some form of financial reward, especially as we live in a society where money is omnipresent. And it’s not that common for entrepreneurs to choose the common good as their primary objective. Most start-up founders are also driven by the engrained and largely mythical prospect of ultimately exiting with a jackpot. As the founder of a cooperative, I know that a jackpot is not technically -let alone morally- possible. A SCOP also requires much more transparency, which is something you have to be prepared for. Lastly, with a single shareholder, the internal dynamics are binary; if there are any fundamental disagreements, employees either lie low or quit. With a SCOP, however, the decision process is democratic (one person one vote), and requires a lot of effort, listening and compromise. It can be tiring and even hurtful when relationships are not as harmonious as hoped for. So it’s not all rosy, and each year we have a few outbursts and meltdowns, with colleagues who don’t get on. Nevertheless, this is unavoidable between human beings and overall, we are very fortunate that Titi operates smoothly and healthily. And, I have just been re-elected to the board. Phew!

You are a fierce advocate for growth. Isn’t this a risky way to manage a cooperative?

I see no contradiction in having growth ambitions for our SCOPs. We are a bit restricted in the ways we can use our capital and have the obligation to redistribute a lot of it. But this is where my entrepreneurial vision and personal touch come into play. I like to bring ideas for new projects to launch or to integrate. They are often complex, but I am persistent. This question comes back every year: do we lose our identity if we grow? Our expansion strategy is to recreate a local entity in each region. This way each entity is anchored locally with a strong sense of belonging. All employees benefit from the economy of scale and the protection that the parent company offers. I am convinced that this approach actually mitigates risk.

Is there a recent project that you are particularly proud of?

That would be the new SCOP we are working on, for sure! For many elderly people living alone, the social isolation can lead to a serious decline in physical and mental health. There are a lack of housing options for this population. When they lose their autonomy, the elderly either move to an expensive serviced residence, or, more frequently, to a large and impersonal nursing home. I dreamed up Hacoopa, a smaller scale shared living space that people can move into before they become too dependent. A coordinator will be on site for a couple of hours each day to bring some social cohesion and deal with logistics.

The first building near Nantes should welcome its first residents in 2022. Back in 2020, before starting the building work, we organised a street art exhibition on site. We invited a group of talented street artists to paint the inside walls and the event has sparked people’s curiosity and created a buzz around the project. It was amazing*. I believe in this housing concept so much that the plan is to build a popular movement around this, and develop a whole network of similar homes in the west of France.

*Note from the Audencia team: this is the venue where we organised the photoshoot with Boris. The artwork he mentions is visible in the background of the photos in this article!

Do you manage to find the time to stay close to the activity on the ground?

This year has been different because of covid, but usually I do. We constantly have to go through tendering processes, and I am still in charge of the commercial activity. Occasionally, I take the time to be at the school gates. Greeting the school head teachers with whom I set up the service, chatting with the drivers and watching the children boarding the vehicles always feels special. 

Do you often reflect on the impact that you are making through your multiple ventures?

It’s always heart-warming to be reminded of the difference we are making in people’s lives. Thank you! But frankly, most of the time, I find myself facing the stressful flow of everyday business bumps so, unfortunately, I often miss the gratifying aspect of the activity.

How do you unwind from all of this?

I relax easily when I am around my wife and my four kids, but my mind is always switched on in the background …and so is my work phone! For the first 9 years, I was on call 24/7, and now, fortunately, we rotate. Drivers call if they have an accident in the middle of the night, or fall ill and can’t do a job. The callers are sometimes surprised to hear the “the big boss” picking up! The launch of La Fraterne last summer, with its guinguette and live concerts, was a good excuse to spend many evenings out and let some steam off, even if it wasn’t ideal for my sleeping regime!

Looking ahead, what are your long-term career plans?

Social businesses need to operate in the long term to trigger deep changes; we need to plan for longer lifespans. I am also aware of the importance of preserving my colleagues’ health as well as mine. Looking ahead, I would like to find myself in an environment with less pressure though. Yet at the same time, I love the stimulation that my leadership role provides. It has even equipped me to overcome challenging situations I faced in my personal life. Like everything, it’s matter of finding balance.
Maybe it’s the lockdown introspection effect, but I have recently started to project myself in a future where I am not heading up this company anymore. I know that I need to restructure it so the teams are less dependent on me. The plan is to continue to surround myself with the most talented staff, and for me to take some distance. No one is irreplaceable.